Vaccinations

[Grace Erick]

Hi,

I thought someone here asked about vaccinations and I can't find that post anymore, but here is what Dr. Jean Dodds recommends for the first year of your dogs life and afterwards:

Vaccine Schedule, Vaccination Protocol, Vaccine Protocol
Revised 4/00

Dr Jean Dodds: "This schedule is the one I recommend and should NOT be interpreted to mean that other protocols recommended by a veterinarian would be less satisfactory. It's a matter of professional judgement and choice."

For breeds or families of dogs susceptible to or effected with immune dysfunction, immune-mediated disease, immune-reactions associated with vaccinations, or autoimmune endocrine disease (e.g., thyroiditis, Addison's or Cushing's disease, diabetes, etc.), the following protocol is recommended:

Age of Pups Vaccine Type
9 weeks MLV Distemper/Parvovirus only (e.g. Intervet Progard Puppy)
12 weeks MLV Distemper/Parvovirus only (e.g. Intervet Progard Puppy)
16-20 weeks MLV Distemper/Parvovirus only (e.g. Intervet Progard Puppy)

(Total of 3 doses ONLY first 3)

24 weeks or older
24 weeks or older, if allowable by law Killed Rabies Vaccine

1 year MLV Distemper/Parvovirus only booster
1 year give 3-4 weeks apart from Dist/Parvo booster) Killed 3 year rabies vaccine

MLV=modified-live virus

This is the link to more info about yearly shots for particular dogs and her feelings about further shots:

http://www.doglogic.com/vaccination.htm

Bye, Grace

[Amber]

That's not counting the first round that most breeders give their pups around 5-6 weeks of age, right before going to their new homes though. That's how it usually is down here, anyway.

[Grace Erick]

I have to say that different vets offer different yearly shots. Some vets believe that yearly shots or not all yearly shots are necessary. I have to say that some really are definitely not necessary if you don't have that particular problem in your area like the corona virus shot and the lepto shot. Lepto protects against rats and things contaminated by them and is considered to have too many side effects to just give to a dog if there is no reason for it just because it may be part of some vets 5-1 shot or 4-1 or 3-1 shot.

Every vet offers different combinations of shots depending on what they think is necessary. My vet gave the distemper/parvo/corona. I was told we have no corona problem, but bordetella was necessary, so I went to another vet that gave the shots I wanted my dog to have.

My vet also decided he would now charge an exam fee or he would not vaccinate my pet. A yearly exam is good, but he can't twist my arm to make my pet get one, AND he raised his exam fee to $45!!!! I found a vet that holds a clinic once a month where they just give shots for $21. Now I'm not shopping around for the cheapest vet. I just don't want to be forced to have my dog examined and get shots I don't think are necessary.

Bye, Grace

[Grace Erick]

Amber, not that you have to know the answer to this, but I wonder why she did not mention those beginning shots? Maybe they are more standard and not in question as much as the later ones???

Don't new puppies get wormed also?

I got my dog at 5 months old and didn't know which way was up when I went for shots. I just knew the breeder said to not give Capri the lepto shot and then I started to learn more about dogs and vaccines.

Bye, Grace

[Amber]

She probably was just talking about the shots that the new owner had to get after getting their puppy/dog. I think it's common practice for the breeder to give the first round of shots. I could be wrong about that though. Puppies are born with worms and are supposed to be wormed, yes. I didn't realize she did not say anything about that until you just mentioned that...hm...that's a bit odd.

[Missy Stewart]

I have a lot of respect for Jean Dodds! She has really pioneered a lot of great research. To tell you the truth, I am almost positive that the vaccines that she has listed here, are the only ones that she reccomends for the first year. If you give vaccines to early, it intereferes with the natural immunity given from the mother, which often leads to the vaccine being ineffective, or worse, causing some sort of immune-suppressed disease. If you click on the link, which you may have, it goes into a little more detail on her vaccination schedule. I really like it, but that is just my opinion.

[Missy Stewart]

ok.. I found this in the link that was posted from Jean Dodds site. It talks about the age to start vaccinating...

"NEW PRINCIPLES OF IMMUNOLOGY

"Dogs and cats immune systems mature fully at 6 months. If a modified live virus vaccine is given after 6 months of age, it produces an immunity which is good for the life of the pet (ie: canine distemper, parvo, feline distemper). If another MLV vaccine is given a year later, the antibodies from the first vaccine neutralize the antigens of the second vaccine and there is little or no effect. The titer is not "boosted" nor are more memory cells induced.

"Not only are annual boosters for parvo and distemper unnecessary, they subject the pet to potential risks of allergic reactions and immune-mediated hemolytic anemia.

"There is no scientific documentation to back up label claims for annual administration of MLV vaccines

"Puppies receive antibodies through their mothers milk. This natural protection can last 8-14 weeks. Puppies & kittens should NOT be vaccinated at LESS than 8 weeks. Maternal immunity will neutralize the vaccine and little protection (0-38%) will be produced. Vaccination at 6 weeks will, however, delay the timing of the first highly effective vaccine. Vaccinations given 2 weeks apart suppress rather than stimulate the immune system. A series of vaccinations is given starting at 8 weeks and given 3-4 weeks apart up to 16 weeks of age. Another vaccination given sometime after 6 months of age (usually at 1 year 4 mo) will provide lifetime immunity.

Hope this helps :wink:

[Grace Erick]

Amber, I guess since she is just talking about vaccines, so she didn't mention the worming part. I didn't know puppies were born with worms. I often wondered why they had to be wormed.

Amber, you do have a point about the beginning vaccines since I thought at the time you got your puppy at 8 weeks or so, they did have shots, but again, maybe according to Jean Dodds, they mess up the immune system in place from the mom since I've read the mom does pass along immunity to certain things as Missy mentioned.

According to some literature I've read, if you give vaccines at the proper time, a dog does not need more vaccines for the rest of their lives. Then I have read vaccines are proven to last from 3-7 years from people who do titer tests which I hate to even get into in a way since it's said you can't really do a titer test (blood test for immunity) unless the dog is exposed to a particular virus to see how they react, so I've read titer tests really aren't a measure of a dog's immunity.

I have seen on dog travel sites that some countries require titer tests, so who the heck knows, but that may just be for rabies which I don't know if a dog can have immunity without having the shot.

"Other" people think if their dog is healthy and fed a good diet, they are immune to everything which I really don't believe.

Another thing is that vaccination books state that there are different strains of viruses so if you dog gets a vaccination, it may not be good for the strain they may come in contact with. This is why I can't read these vaccination books. I get so confused:)

Bye, Grace

[Grace Erick]

Missy, you beat me to posting! So now does that mean since at this point we are all on the old regime and have had early vaccinations of our dogs that they are not immune for life because the vaccine cancelled out the dog's natural immunity? Do you have to follow her schedule to have a dog that is totally immune to rephrase the same question?

I know this cannot include rabies, though some people don't believe in rabies shots if their dogs will not come in contact with wild animals or other dogs, but maybe Amber can answer this, in order to get a dog license, don't you have to prove you have given your dog a rabies shot?

Bye, Grace

[Missy Stewart]

If you click on the newsflash link (inside of the link that you gave) she lists a lot of good sites at the bottom of the screen on vaccinations. I have been reading through them and they are really quite interesting. They are listed under vaccine links.

Here is the newsflash link. Just scroll down to the bottom of the page. It is also where I got the passage that I posted earlier.

http://www.doglogic.com/vaccineinfo.htm#news

This should hopefully work :wink:

[Missy Stewart]

And also.. if you scroll to the top of that link there is an interesting article on vaccinosis.

Sorry... I'm having fun reading :D I'll quit bothering you all!!!!

[Missy Stewart]

No, I don't think that it means that you have hindered your dogs ability to form immunity for life per se... but I also really don't know the answer to this :? I think what she is getting at is that if you tamper with the dogs natural immunity, those initial shots are not going to do very much (if given too young). So as a result, your dog could become more likely to react negatively to its vaccinations later and may also have a harder time forming long lasting immunity. But again.. I really don't know. This vaccination stuff does get really tricky!

Sonny was WAY over-vaccinated as a pup. And he developed horrible allergies when he was only 16 weeks old. My dog was a wreck (as well as becomming increasingly aggressive).. and I thought that I was being the responsible owner by having him quickly vaccinated for EVERYTHING on the market. But then again, I'm sure other people pups went through the same vaccine regime as mine without the awful side effects.. I guess it just depends on the dog...

There are a LOT of legalities tied into the rabies shot. As far as I know, yes, you do have to present proof of rabies to obtain a dog license. It would be illegal for her to reccomend anything outside of what is required by law for rabies.. even if she felt that there was evidence against it. Authors tread very carefully on how they phrase the use of the rabies vaccine... too much liability I suppose.

[Amber]

All I really know about the rabies shot is that you must give it once a year and that the vet has to do it. It is common practice down here (and I'm sure in other places as well) to go buy your shots at the store and give your dog the shots yourself, excluding the rabies shot because that's illegal. I don't do it with my dog's simply because I like to ask my vet's various other questions while I'm in there with them. The owner of the shelter that I volunteer for usually buys all her shots (except rabies) and gives them to her dogs at the shelter and will give them to her client's dogs as long as they pay for the shots and bring them to her. It's perfectly legal in Louisiana to do it...not to start up another conversation or anything, because I'm sure there are many people against that as well.

[Grace Erick]

Oh, I saw the "flash" info!! I just could not get into reading it this late at night and I know I will come away just as confused as I am now. If you figure it out, I will personally call you so you can explain it to me:)

There is so much info about vaccinations out there. I was just reading another article where the vet says to wait until the dog is 14 weeks old. I want one freakin answer! I don't want to read "I think" and "most likely". I want to know for sure what the answers are to vaccinations.

I've read that yearly vaccines were thought up to make a person bring their dog in for a yearly exam which doesn't sound right since not all vets give exams with shots. Then I read heartworm meds or certain ones really last for 6 weeks, but people will remember when a month goes by, so they say it lasts a month instead of 6 weeks. Now how crazy is that???

Bye, Grace

[Missy Stewart]

I have also read about how the original purpose of yearly vaccinations was to bring in people, who would normally not bring their dogs in unless sick, for an annual checkup. The thought being that since vaccines were nearly harmless, what could it hurt? Yet I think in a lot of ways, we are discovering how overvaccinating can hurt, and the practice is comming under a LOT of scrutiny. Below is an excerpt from a news letter entitiled "The Peeing Post" which is authored by Mogens Eliason. It discusses, in very general terms, some of the side effects of over doing it with shots.

"The world's largest vaccine manufacturer, Merck in Germany, is publishing what has become "the vaccine bible" - a huge reference work with all kinds of crucial information on vaccines. All serious professionals in the industry use it as a reference. Merck writes in this giant handbook that vaccination should never be done to any individual who suffers from any kind of allergy or neurological disorder - simply because the vaccine has a large risk of doing irreversible neurological damage for such individuals. Merck is also warning against repeated vaccinations and multiple vaccinations, based of evidence of the same side effects."

I don't think you are ever going to get any set answers Grace... the best the medical field can really do it give you their best judgement based on the research presented to them. Research can be interpreted differently... which can lead to different conclusions on how to, in this case, best care for your dog.

I really do not have a set opinion on vaccinations. I personally have to base my judgement on my own dog. He reacts severly to them. So as a result, we have had to be very careful with what we give him, and how it is done. His vet spoke with me a few months ago on possibly writing him a letter of exemption even from rabies. For some dogs, the damage done by the vaccine can be worse than the risk of the dog contracting the disease. With my dog that is the case, but for a lot of other dogs, it isn't.

Below is an interesting link on a study done on a group of 3800 dogs (post vaccinations) in relation to vaccine related sickness and reactions. You can easily scan through it and get an idea of what the study is about. Check it out if you want, I find it interesting. But I would not use it as a concluding factor in whether or not to vaccinate, how much to, etc...

http://www.bogartsdaddy.com/bouvier/health/vaccination-concerns-uk.htm

[Grace Erick]

Missy, that article seems to show a lot of reactions to vaccinations. I almost find it to be rather high.

Well, maybe I can't get a definite study, because one has not been done. I have seen people say they have done titers and the immunity levels were high in their dogs after 3-7 years, but again, I read the dog has to be in contact with the virus to see what their immunity actually is.

Capri is not due for vaccinations for a long time, so I do have some time to find more research. I know I would at least not have her get the rabies and the other vaccines at the same time. Acutally, I think a lot of dogs get reactions to the rabies vaccines which I don't think is really addressed.

Bye, Grace

[Missy Stewart]

Try to get your vet to order single vaccinations for you. And give them several weeks apart. Especially the rabies vaccine. There is actually a lot of info out there addressing reactions to rabies vaccines because it is one of the most common. Just type Rabies Vaccinosis into a search engine and you will get a lot of hits.

The rabies vaccine is what they believe Sonny reacted the worse to because of an explosion of aggressive behavior in him shortly after and also the development of the chronic allergies within a week of receiving the shot. I think that it is one of the worst for your dog to be reactive to due to the fact that it is required by law. Your vet can write you a letter of exemption if she thinks it is bad enough... but other than that, you are really out of luck :?