Alternatives for socialization

[Summer Magic]

I would like to pose a question regarding socialization. I live in a rural area that does not have a petsmart that doesn't require a drive of an hour or more. There are no dogs in my area (resort) that I can make a play date with. Also if I approached anyone in the community regarding a play date for the dogs they'd think I was nuts (good ol' boys club.) Magic needs to be socialized more, would I be remiss about finding a group training session to take her to just to help her with her lost puppy education? I would certainly warn the instructor that she has a huge case of fear aggression. She reacts with growling and barking at other dogs, but when she gets up to them, aftrer the intitial greeting, all she wants to do is play. If that isn't a good way to go, my daughter has a terrier about Magic's size. Should I have Peaches come and stay with us to play with Magic for a month or so? I'd sure appreciate some input here.

[Michelle Rose-Fuller]

Hi There!

What kind of fear aggression does she display? Toward other dogs? Inanimate objects? Other people?

As I've stated before, our adopted Aussie displays fear agression toward strangers and other dogs. Obedience training was a great start, as it strengthened our bond with her, boosted her confidence level, and provided some socialization with other dogs.

How about a dog park? How about taking her with you to stores like Home Depot with yummy treats in hand? If she likes other dogs, I think supervised play dates are great!

We continue to work on desensitizing our dog, and we've owned her for about 2 years now.

Warm Regards,

Michelle

[Summer Magic]

Magic displays aggression to any stimulus. Dogs, bikes, cars, people, cats the phone, the door bell, the oven timer. We live in a lake resort community and I have intermittent neighbors (usually weekenders) on either side of us. There is nothing but State land behind our house for acres and acres. (great for dog walks, poor for socialization) She has bitten my mother and myself on numerous occasions regarding phone, door and oven timer. She does draw blood each time. I have talked to trainers in my area however they are more for hunting and retrieving than behavior. I had one person give me the "sage" advise that "if you have a psycho dog, the best thing to do is get another dog." Magic is a sweet little girl who had a bad start in life and I feel it's my responsibility to help her become all she could be.

[heathea]

I don't think bringing a dog to stay with you will solve your problem. That dog will become a member of the "pack" and won't really socialize your dog. Short-ish visits with random other dogs would be more helpful, but I understand your problem. I wish I had more advice for you. good luck.
Heather

[Alberta Hanko]

Hi - I am wondering if you could take Magic to a class, and keep her on the outskirt, you practicing your obedience training, and them practicing whatever--hunting retrieving--if this would not push her too far over the top. I really can't get that far with Linus yet--it would be too much stimulation. I sort of like the idea of you daughter's dog playing with Magic--have they met yet? I keep thinking the more good experiences they have with other dogs, are good points in their learning books. Is your daughter far away? Can her dog come over for play dates? I pickup my son's dog (Linus' only real friend) on weekends whenever I can and they play together. Great for exhausting him. Your daughter's dog and Magic could go for walks together and you could practice some of the meeting other dogs stuff with her, if they are friendly together. Good luck.

Alberta & Linus

[Summer Magic]

We took a three week vacation last September to visit my son in Hawaii(sigh) and Magic stayed with my daughter. She has a St. Bernard, two Great Danes, a Yellow Lab, and the terrier. Magic was not allowed to play with the big guys because of her size (25lbs) but she did spend her entire visit playing with peaches (the terrier) All of the dogs live in the house so she was around them 24-7 for that three weeks. My daughter didn't say anything about behavior problems, but she did tell me that in the late evening everyone dropped to the floor and slept together.

[Michelle Rose-Fuller]

Wow, there seems to be more than just fear aggression going on.....a little dominance aggression as well? Is Magic scared of the door, phone, etc., or does she not like you moving towards them?

Either way, group obedience training focusing on positive reinforcement is a good start. Just be sure to position yourself at the end of the line to avoid potential incidents. Actually, you might want to contact the trainer ahead of time and discuss your situation. I was lucky to get someone who was also a behaviorist and willing to include her in the class.

I am curious to know if others have been successful in modifying aggressive behavior by bringing home an adopted sibling. I've been toying with the idea of adopting a mellow, well adjusted dog as a model for Ruby:-) Maybe if she sees that her canine companion can handle strangers and toddlers, she'll rise to the occassion;-)

[Summer Magic]

When the phone rings and I don't have to get up to answer it she will still jump up and run around but doesn't try to snap at me. It's only when I move that there is a danger of her snapping.

[Michelle Rose-Fuller]

I'm hoping Renee will join this conversation and give you some advice.

So, sudden movement sets her off? Is it in conjunction with waking her suddenly? Just trying to get a better picture of why she's doing what she does. You can't touch my dog if she's sleeping---she will snap first, investigate later.

[Summer Magic]

That's ok, the more you know the better the picture of the problem. Yes, it seems to be the sound, then the movement. If I am close enough to her to catch her leash before she gets really wound up when the phone rings I can have her focus on me and have her sit and calm her down. We can then go to the phone together (leash in hand) and I can answer it without any aggression when I release her leash after I answer the call she usually goes and lays down. She doesn't seem to resent the phone itself. She is not at all controlable with the door bell, just spazzes out even with my holding the leash. She will sit only when I put my palm on her rump, but she jumps right back up when I remove my hand. No amount of stroking will calm her no treat is tempting enough to take her attention away from the door. When I'm holding her leash her whole body shudders, she yawns, pants, and makes little whining sounds. This all goes away when the person comes in the house and sits down and like I said before, then she willingly goes to them and greets them on her own.

[Daniela Jantzen]

Hello,

has this dog ever been checked through properly by a vet, incl. complete bloodwork, escp. thyroid panel test?
If not, ensure you do so right away. Many extreme and sometimes unpredictable forms of behaviour problems are caused by organic or physical problems.

Furthermore, I would highly recommend you look for a positive reinforcement trainer in your area (or at least somewhere close by who might be able to recommend someone closer) to help you sort out your problems in your usual environment, at home.
Some good links to check out:
http://ccpdt.org/
http://www.apdt.com/
http://animalbehaviorcounse lors.com/index.shtml

In the meantime, keep the stress level as low as possible. Never push the dog for anything! Try to establish a solid relationship of trust and confidence.
One good way to do so is NILIF. I don't know if the article has been brought over from the old DoggieDoor site, if not you will find plenty of info on that on the web.
Also start working with her more frequently on her general obedience. Training builds confidence and strengthens the bond to the owner, thus making it easier for you to address any type of behaviour problem which might occur. If you train her by using the clicker, you not only come up with a fun way to train new stuff, but also help her improve her stress resistance as well which might come handy in many situations.

Establish a cue for relaxed behaviour. When your dog is completely relaxed (maybe just dozing off, or while you pet it), just make a sound like "mmmmmh" or "sssshhhhhh" in a very low, calm voice. The goal is to help the dog associate this cue with a state of complete relaxation, thus allowing it to relax on cue in stressful situations.

Also, look into TellingtonTouch. Some of the touches and the bodywraps should help you even further to help Magic relax and calm down in general.

Regarding the doorbell desensitation:
maybe this link by Renee helps a bit. :wink:
http://www.dogtrainersearch .com/articles/reneepremaza/doorbellbarking.htm

Danny

[Summer Magic]

Her foster mom started her on NILF before I adopted her and I've continued the philosophy. Lately she has been coming to me when I call her when she is in one of her frenzies (usually another dog or person walking on the street) she can't see them but always knows when they are passing the house, even if there is no noise. I think she can smell them because we usually have the windows open. She acts like she can't hear me when the door bell sounds though. My mother has no control over the dog at all, and if the phone happens to ring and I am in the other room the dog will immediately attack her. She has backed off from lunging and snapping at me because I'm quick enough to catch the leash> Mom is 85 and can't move that fast. I will look for a trainer as soon as I get back home to Michigan. We have so few weeks left here in Florida that I don't want to get her started in a program and have to leave.

[Daniela Jantzen]

Her foster mom started her on NILF before I adopted her and I've continued the philosophy. Lately she has been coming to me when I call her when she is in one of her frenzies (usually another dog or person walking on the street) she can't see them but always knows when they are passing the house, even if there is no noise. I think she can smell them because we usually have the windows open.

She might even be able to hear them. After all, dogs have an incredible ability to hear even the lightest sounds.
However, great she is starting to respond to you already, even in situations of high stress! :)
If she is barking her head off in such moments: start teaching her "barl" and "quiet" on command. When she is starting to bark, say "good bark" in a light voice. Then hold a nice treat in front of her noice and as soon as she stops for a second to sniff it, say "quiet" or "sssshhh", reward her with the treat and praise her. For some reason, bringing barking behaviour under cue is sometimes the best way to control it.


She acts like she can't hear me when the door bell sounds though.

She probably can't. I assume she is so focused on what she is doing, all of her senses are concentrated on her actions and none on you. Same goes for dogs which are hunting: they simply can't hear you.
This is common in humans as well. I call it the "George Clooney effect": if George Clooney was sitting right in front of me you can bet your life I would not be able to notice anything around me but him! :wink:


My mother has no control over the dog at all, and if the phone happens to ring and I am in the other room the dog will immediately attack her. She has backed off from lunging and snapping at me because I'm quick enough to catch the leash> Mom is 85 and can't move that fast. I will look for a trainer as soon as I get back home to Michigan. We have so few weeks left here in Florida that I don't want to get her started in a program and have to leave.

Is your mother using NILIF as well? If not, please ask her to. For her own and for Magics benefit.
I keep my fingers crossed for you regarding your trainer search in Michigan. Unfortunately I can't recommend someone myself - Germany is simply too far off...... :wink:

Danny

[Summer Magic]

Thanks so much.. Very good suggestion. I've never thought of teaching her to bark on que, I figured she barked enough on her own! I am trying to teach mom about NILF, she never had dogs at home so it's been rough. I'm also trying to change some behavior in mom too. She believes Magic should respond to a command just because she says so..... I'm trying to teach MOM that the dog can't respond if she doesn't understand what the command means! Also you can expect a dog to attack if you continue to swat at it with a newspaper! ARRRRRGH! I've told her over and over simply stand still, bring your hands up to your chest so she can't reach them, and don't worry about the phone the machine will pick it up if you can't! She's 85 and it's hard to teach old dogs :roll: I also would like to tell you that a copy of Tellington 'Touch will be arriving in a few days!

[Michelle Rose-Fuller]

Yikes! Swatting is definitely not the answer! We don't want Magic to associate your mom with unpleasant things. I've found that people who don't understand fear aggression don't behave themselves in an appropriate manner around such a dog. My dad has almost been bit at least 3 times because he's tried to pet my dog when she didn't want anything to do with him.

Wow, your problem is very interesting. Sounds like you're on the right track by redirecting her attention, then pairing a treat with the scary noise. In any case, NILF is the way to go. It just takes time. It took our rescue a good 1 1/2 years to bond with us, and we still have days where she reverts to old, "snarky" (scared and agressive) behaviors.

Danny's suggestion on the full physical is great, especially checking the thyroid. I've read that even a slight thyroid problem can make dogs exhibit aggressive behaviors.

Posting an inquiry on the homeopathic forum may help you as well.

Good luck! :wink:

[Summer Magic]

Yea, I know. You don't know how many times I wanted to swat her (#%$$#@ERGHUUYYT.) But I can't, she's my mom. We have tension between us when magic has had a spaz episode and I correct Mom instead of the dog. She'll have to get over it because she lives with ME I don't live with HER. Our tension doesn't last very long it's just too bad it has to be there at all.

[Michelle Rose-Fuller]

I understand. I keep telling my dad that he's asking to be bit if he insists on acting like a 9 year old boy, and that I won't be held responsible :wink:

[Daniela Jantzen]

Just keep in mind that positive reinforcement works best with humans as well. Maybe you should start clickertraining your Mom....or in Michelles case, her Dad. :wink:

[Summer Magic]

Thanks, I think we both needed that reminder right now.

[Michelle Rose-Fuller]

Ok, I'll bring him treats :D

[Amber]

Also, have you tried desensitizing (sp?) Magic to these things? When the phone rings, give a treat. Walk her by a bike and treat her. Have someone ring the doorbell...treat, etc. It'll take some time, but I've heard of this working as well. I may have to start using this method with my Sally (her pic is under my name). She's a rescue dog that is scared of just about everything she puts her little eyes on!