Short doggies: Circling in?

[Casey Laurie]

Ok, I tried the circling into Rusty on the front lawn to get him to look at me:

http://www.clickersolutions .com/articles/2002c/lostattention.htm

Here's my problem:

#1 Rusty is a shorty! He's 18 inches long and only about 6 to 8 inches tall. When I'd circle into him he would just roll on the ground or move backwards. He never once looked at my face; at my ankles maybe, but he was so stressed he didn't evben really see anything, he just sort of glazed over. this was with the Halti on. I don't think he would have been quite so stressed if it hadn't been on. I did do lots of treats and put it on a little at a time, but he's always hated it. He doesn't resist it, he just shuts down.

#2 If I use any of his "gear" (Muzzle, GL, Harness), he is much less responsive than with just the flat collar. However, I cannot safely ignore fear based aggression unless I use the muzzle at the very least. If I use the GL or the Halti, he shuts down PERIOD. I managed to get some eye contact sitting on the porch, but the poor dog was really fighting to stay focused.

If I use the muzzle with the flat collar, he strains during freak-outs and I'm afraid he'll injure himself, which is why I bought the harness. I can't do open bar with the muzzle, or get treats through the cage fast or efficient enough to make any real progress, and the harness is just one more thing that stresses him out. If we're going to the park or for a walk he has time to get distracted fromit, but still stresses in the meantime and it doesn't really do anything to keep people and dogs safe from his little jaws.

#3 My next door neighbor is a moron. If the dog on the porch with the human is barking and snarling at you and the human is telling you to back off..FRIGGING DO IT! Don't continue to approach head on and laugh until the human has to yell at you to get away before you get bitten and has to physically hold her dog in a hug while turning away to keep him from attacking you. Idiot. :banghead:

#3 isn't really an ongoing issue. I just needed to vent.

Any suggestions re: 1 & 2? I generally try to ignore the neighbor as much as humanly possible without being discourteous.

[Kendall Aliza]

I did not click the link just so you know...
I trained look at me by holding the treat right at my eyes. I am only assuming that is not what youre doing. Then I progressed to having the treat behind my back put point to my eye when i said the command. It worked just fine for me though my dog is not as small as yours.

[Casey Laurie]

This is for regaining his attention during stressful events...triggers of his defensive behavior so that I can train him to look at me when the trigger first appears to him and maintain his connection to me and the world instead of freaking out and attempting to attack the trigger. If we are out walking, I need to be able to get his attention when I need it. We are working on the front porch as well, just sitting so I can be closer to eye level and he can learn to "Check in" often, and hopefully look to me when a potential trigger passes. If we are out walking and I see the trigger before he does, then I can crouch down and face him away from the trigger, giving him lots of yummy treats as the trigger passes.
I don't always see the trigger before he does though, because I cannot observe his behavior and the environment fully simultaneously. there is usually only a split second between him sighting the trigger and reacting. If I can get his attention either before he sees the trigger, or at that very moment, then I have a better chance of helping him stay in control. If not, I don't know what else to do besides remove him from the area...and that isn't always possible if I'm on the street.

This article instructs you to circle around the dog into his path thus forcing him to lok at you to avoid being steped on. My problem is that he shuts down or panics before I can get to that point. I don't kmnow how or if I can get this technique to work for me as his height seems to be an issue. Most of these articles are written in response to people with medium to large dogs. I have a giant size dog in a very compact, very short, rather long, 17lb package ;)

[Sharon Alcon]

Thanks for giving me some ideas. My dog Max goes into his own little world when he sees another dog. He has gotten better about getting upset at the ones behind fences that he can't see but hear. He had a personal trainer for awhile that noticed how stressed he was as soon as we walked out the front door for walks. He would whimper and whine in anticapation of seeing another dog. I tried using treats to get his attention and he is normally a chow hound. Once he is worked up there is no getting his attention, you could stuff a treat in his mouth and he will spit it out. Then afterwards he takes a long time to calm down. The trainer showed me some positions that put him in a more relaxing state, sitting or laying down. After reading that article and your email I am going to try some new techniques. Ok I am loving this site lately.

[Alberta Hanko]

Hi Casey - This is from someone still struggling with this issue--my Linus goes off when he sees another dog also. But I have worked, as Kendall is suggesting, on a "watch" (or "look") command getting him to look in my eyes, starting inside the house to make it a strong responses and we practice outside now. I use only the finest of treats--peanut butter on craft sticks, which he never gets for anything else. I am also learning not to scan around so much once we are out (I look around, and now and then do a quick scan) but am keeping my eyes on him--if he starts to alert at all, I ask for a "watch". No doubt you can see the difference when they are alerting over a person as compared to a dog--Linus actually freezes for a few seconds. Obviously, I am learning from my mistakes :-). Once you get a command down, you should be able to work it through with a circle into your little guy, and as Kendall suggests ask for a sit and then a "watch" or some form of this.

Good luck.

Alberta & Linus

[Monique Shimm]

Hi Casey,

I think it's worth another shot to speak with your neighbor. You will see this person a lot (potentially) and it's best to get him on your side.

I would go over to your neighbor's house, without the dog, and explain the situation to him. He may be laughing and trying to be friendly to help you (ignorantly perhaps). He probably doesn't know what he is doing and is not even hearing you when you frantically tell him to back off. He probably thinks that what he is doing will help. You can even bring over a thankyou gift like chocolate or a plant. I know that seems overboard, but if you make an impression on him and tell him what you want, he will likely do it (unless he is a complete moron as you say). He may even be willing to help you with the training.

Two years ago, I enlisted the help of my neighbors when I first got my dog. I had their children feed my puppy treats whenever I saw them. I instructed them on how to properly approach a dog etc. Right now, my dog is going through a fear stage with men. The neighbors on the other side (very dog savy people) are helping me with that.

Good luck.

[Casey Laurie]

Thanks Alberta,

I'm working on "look" with Rusty daily. It's the outside that stresses him out so much to begin with. We live in a heavily trafficked urban area right across the streeet from a fire station and down the road from both an ambulance company and the police station. In our immediate neighborhood are several bars,and two streets over is an elementary school. We live in stress central for him.

He is stressed and bounces between hyper alert and totally glazed over from the moment we step out the front door. He is very difficult for me to read because he will go from shut down to frenzied within a second unless I see the trigger before he does. He will not make eye contact during walks and does a LOT of sniffing at the ground. I have to walk him or he won't poo..won't go anywhere near the house unless it's a dire emergency (like it's been raining 3 days straight and hasn't been able to find the right "spot" and holding it in until he just can't hold it any more)

What I try to do is get him out very early in the morning before traffic picks up. If traffic is low, He still won't make eye contact, but I may get an ear flick..should I start with that maybe? Despite being super stressed and unable to look at me, he can still follow basic commands like "leave it" and "sit" as long as there are no triggers within his zone..I won't call it a safety zone because he is still stressed from everthing else.
His favorite time is around 9pm. Motor and pedestrian traffic is low, and there is usually no one at the basketball court/tot lot down the street so we go there. He also loves to hunt rats >^_~. If the street is deserted we run all the way which he just loves.

He also likes the back yard, but it is not fenced in so he must stay on lead. He will relax and play back there though....just won't potty, lol.

I do not allow him to get into any sort of aroused state (happy or frightened) around strangers because he can turn in a nanosecond at that stage. My husband or I are the only ones that can handle him if he's frenzied. It's like nothing else exists to him but the trigger or triggers, yet he still has presence of mind to see us as safety. If I can pick him up he calms down more quickly.

In the house, with family, he's a totally different dog. Rusty is the loviest, cuddle-bug. Affectionate, playful, attentive, gentle,..my sweet little puppy-boy. One of my deepest wishes is to get him to be capable of being that happy and relaxed in any environment.

[Casey Laurie]

Thanks Monique, but trust me..he's an idiot. He is rude, presumtuous, and insensitive, among other more colorful adjectives that I won't sully this forum with. I'm sure he did think he was just being friendly, and wasn't that little dog so cute foaming at the mouth like that?
He's one of those "It's just a dog." people. I'm not sure which type is more aggrivating.

"It's just a dog" , or "He won't bite ME. Dogs love ME."

[Alberta Hanko]

Hi - I hear ya on this one. Mine also becomes overly stressed when we go out in front, particularly at night, and we live in a quiet area. Except for loose dogs, his biggest stressor, we don't see a lot of people--so have to drive to store parking lots and walk him around there to help him with people stress.

"He is stressed and bounces between hyper alert and totally glazed over from the moment we step out the front door. "

I am still struggling with this, but we are having less trouble going out front--as long as no other dog is out there that is. When we go out, since he is quiet and is now looking up at me, I use the clicker and treat and click. We sort of do that all down the walkway. Of course--your little Ruisty is short, and I don't know how tall you are, but you sure could get a backache--maybe drop treats? We use real soft ones for any of this stuff.

"What I try to do is get him out very early in the morning before traffic picks up. If traffic is low, He still won't make eye contact, but I may get an ear flick..should I start with that maybe? "

I am thinking the ear flick is great--he is making some sort of recognition. Have you tried any clicker training? I have found that when Linus is stressed, but is behaving as calmly as he can in that situation--looks or whatever, the click really seems to help--we are marking calm behavior.

"Despite being super stressed and unable to look at me, he can still follow basic commands like "leave it" and "sit" as long as there are no triggers within his zone..I won't call it a safety zone because he is still stressed from everthing else."

That in itself is great, that he can listen and obey basic commands at those times. You are definitely getting there with him!

"His favorite time is around 9pm. "

We go at 10 PM :-). We also drive to the county center around the corner on weekends and walk all through that parking lot practicing simple obedience and loose leash walking.

"I do not allow him to get into any sort of aroused state (happy or frightened) around strangers because he can turn in a nanosecond at that stage. My husband or I are the only ones that can handle him if he's frenzied. It's like nothing else exists to him but the trigger or triggers, yet he still has presence of mind to see us as safety. If I can pick him up he calms down more quickly."

This is exactly what we do with Linus--try to keep him from becoming stressed. I am blown away by the fact that you can pick Rusty up when he is frenzied, he really does see you guys as safety nets. I definitely (not even figuring if he was a good size for this) could not pickup Linus during a time like that. We have to move out of the area that is stressing him.


"In the house, with family, he's a totally different dog. Rusty is the loviest, cuddle-bug. Affectionate, playful, attentive, gentle,..my sweet little puppy-boy. One of my deepest wishes is to get him to be capable of being that happy and relaxed in any environment.[/QUOTE]

Which is why we love these troubled guys so much--and why we all work so hard with them and belong to a great group like this!

Alberta & Linus