Food Rewards Too Yummy?

[Susan Bacon]

Although this "problem" is not as extreme as most threads present, surely it exists for other folks. At the urging of our new trainer, we are rewarding our 2 small Shih Tzus with hot dogs and string cheese (little tiny bits)--something they not only look forward to working for, but that they can eat quickly during training sessions. We started this about 2 weeks ago and have two training sessions daily, only about 10 minutes apiece. I try to make sure not to fill them up on their rewards.

Here's the problem: until we started training, they ate their two regular meals of Chicken Soup for the Soul each day without fail. But now that they've been introduced to hot dogs, getting them to eat their meals is like pulling teeth!!! Like a kid that won't eat his vegetables because he'd rather eat chocolate chip cookes! I've tried mixing their food with chicken stock and even get them to work for little pieces of it with the clicker for more practice. Sometimes this works and sometimes it doesn't. It's like they're holding out for the delectable dogs and cheese!

Actually I wasn't sweating this so much, figuring when they got hungry enough and realized the hot dogs weren't always forthcoming they'd start eating their food on schedule again. But Beans, (the reactive, hyper, finickier one) often refuses to eat anything at all in the afternoon or evening and goes to bed hungry. He will wake up at 3 or 4 in the morning ready for a meal and start barking to wake us up. (He sleeps in a crate in a separate room). We've been ignoring him--getting out the earplugs and praying for an extinction burst, but the little guy's just hungry! HOW DO WE CONTINUE TO TRAIN/REWARD THE BOYS, BUT GET THEM TO EAT THEIR MEALS TOO???

[Mario Niepel]

Susan, there is a method to make your dog eat their alloted food immediately and completely once it is offered. Essentially, it goes like this:

- offer the normal amount of food
- count to ten
- remove the food immediately if the dog is either not eating when you are done counting or if the dog started eating but strays away from the bowl
- if the food was not finished do the same thing with half the amount of food at the next normal feeding time
- again, count to ten
- remove the food if the dog is not eating or does not finish
- do this until the dog will eat all food ASAP
- then start increasing the amount of food, still abiding by the above rules

I used this technique on my Sammy who didn't care much about eating. But since at that time Jake, the food hog was still around, we pretty much had to sit next to the food, guarding it from Jake while waiting for Sammy to eat. After a few days Sammy learned to eat all his food immediately.

As a caveat, I would like to say that while this method has worked for me, I do not know of anybody who has actually tried this method, so I can't really vouch for how well it works with other dogs.

Has anybody here on the board used this method?

[Sherri]

I tried a similar method with Baxter. He often would not eat his food, especially the morning meal, or eat part of it and walk away. Our trainer told us to do the following:
-Put Baxters food down, make him offer a behavior (NILIF).. We would make him sit.
-Tell him it is OK to eat.
-If he doesn't eat right away, take the food away in 20 minutes and do not offer a meal until his next scheduled meal time
-Repeat the same behavior at his next meal time
-if he continues to only eat part of his meal, subtract that amount out from the next meal until he will eat the entire bowl in one sitting.

We were worried that Baxter would starve and our trainer told us that a dog can go for 5 days without food.

He would test us for a few days, but now eats his food every day within the 20 min. timeframe. There have been times when I thought he wasn't going to eat, so I would give him a warning like "Baxter, only 10 min. left, then I am taking your food away" and he would usually go in and eat. (not that he knew what I was saying, or that it was a warning :), but the warning always seemed to work)

For approx. 1 week, he was only eating one meal a day, but now for months he has been on his 2 meals a day, and on our schedule.

[Kendall Aliza]

Once your dog has learned the behavior I would also try less filling treats. I only use hotdogs for Shadrak when he is first learning or if I am practicing come.

[Susan Bacon]

Kendall,
Hmmm. Less filling treats? Can you make some recommendations?

Also to Mario and Sherri: Thank you both so much for some very reasonable suggestions for a new approach. I'm going to start with Sherri's idea of a 20-minute plan for a week, but will try to implement Mario's if that doesn't work.

I've been leaving the food down for 15 minutes, but I keep offering it again every hour--esp. in the evening to Beans so that he doesn't wake us up in the night! Obviously that hasn't worked, so I'll NILIF them back into their new old schedules and we'll pull out the earplugs until it happens! Thanks again....

[Kendall Aliza]

small pieces of veggies is what i try to use. sometimes i put a little bit of chicken broth onto some crushed ice, put it back in the frig for about 15-20 mins and use that. keep in mind i am having my own issues with trying to get my dog to eat his breakfast so i am of only minimal (at best) help. :)

[Missy Stewart]

Sonny's trainer also uses a lot of food rewards, so I know how this can be!

I don't know if this will help you or not, but I use a treat that also supplements as a meal. While some dogs will actually work for kibble in low distraction envorments (such as your house or backyard). Other times you will have to use something with a higher value (such as hotdogs).

Sonny eats raw, so I don't use a kibble with him. But there is a company that sells an excellent freeze dried diet that you can break into little pieces and use as training treats. I have had wonderful success in using these. And since they are meant to be fed as the primary diet, you are not filling your dog up with junk every time you train :) Here is the site, I use the freeze dried diet (he loves all flavors). We have a store here in town that sells it, so it might be worth checking into whether or not anyone locally has it.

http://www.naturesvariety.c om/content.lasso?page=1 137&-session=naturesvarie ty:0CD2DB000c8693433 6Jkn20B5AAA

Some days, if we spend a lot of time training, I will use these as one meal, and feed his other as usual. I have not had any problems with getting him to eat his regular food when using these treats. And the only time that I use anything like hotdogs is when we are doing something REALLY difficult or stressful for him.

Hope this helps ;)

[Rebecca Skelhon]

Would the treats mentioned in this thread be suitable of training a puppy?
Rebecca

[Susan Bacon]

Missy,
Awesome advice--and thanks to everyone else too. I appreciate the website and there's a store that sells Nature's Variety here, so I'm on my way today. Rebecca-their website has a calculator for how much to give puppies according to their percentage of adult weight, so that tells me it's suitable for the babies too. I tried Sherri's method skeptically yesterday afternoon and by golly, after 15 minutes Beans started eating (followed of course by little Panda). Hooray--he didn't bark this morning and I actually got to wake HIM up. Ya'll have a great weekend!
Susan

[Ann Morscher]

We had this problem years ago when our previous dog just loved the chicken treats we were giving her when we trained her. She only wanted to eat the chicken. At the advice of our vet, we switched to cheerios. They were small, easy to chew and just the right size for a puppy. They worked great.

We are using them now with our puppy, Misty and she loves them too.

Ann

[Casey Laurie]

Something else you might consider. I'm planning on getting these myself.

http://www.humanedogtrainin g.com/products.php

This way you can be sure that even if you are treating a lot, they will always be getting proper nutrition. You can pretty much put whatever you want in it. I'm planning on using our regular wet food and some of that vitamin gravy.

I've also used Skippy PB in a tube as a training treat and it's absolutely brilliant.
You can really control the amount they are getting. The dog doesn't actually need to get more than a lick or so. They don't care how bit the treat is, they care how many they get. I was able to maintain training yesterday morning even though LIlly was off food for spay surgery. She doesn't need to really GET a treat, just THINK she's getting one >^_~ I just had her lick the cap and it worked

[Missy Stewart]

I'm glad that I could help. One of those bags will last you a long time! I'm not sure exactly how many medallions come in a bag.. but I usually only have to buy one every couple months.

Typically the stores that carry it seem to be VERY knowledgeable on the products and the best way to use them. I am sure that they could give you advice on using the treats with a pup.

I know that in feeding raw, the main difference between feeding a pup and an adult is in the amount fed. You really do not make any significant changes beyond that. And since this is fashioned after a raw diet, I am assuming that it works somewhat the same... Either way you look at it, it is better than your pup filling up on cheese and hotdogs ;)

[Susan Bacon]

Amen to that, Missy--filling up on cheese and hotdogs, that is. I got a bag of them this morning and am pleased to hear that they'll be lasting a while after breaking the bank to pay for them-HA! I used one medallion to reward both pups this morning, 10 mins apiece. That is alot of bang for the buck, actually, and the ingredients list looks terrific.

Casey, I love the food tube idea and your words of wisdom on the number of times they're rewarded as opposed to the amount of treats they get. I'm going to try putting wet food in a squeezable mustard tube (clean of course) and see if that works before ordering a tube, just as an alternative to the freeze-dried rewards.

Awesome, awesome ideas! Thanks everybody! :yourock:

[Susan Bacon]

BTW, Casey, I've been following your Lilly reports and really been impressed! Hope all is well regarding her spay...
Susan

[Missy Stewart]

Ohh good! I'm so glad that they are working! :D I know what you mean about the price though... OUCH! But at least they do last a long time. And like you said, they are healthy!