Dog Whisperer (Renee!!!) - on National Geographic Channel

[Grace Erick]

Hi everyone, has anyone seen Cesar Milan, if I'm spelling his name correctly on the Dog Whisperer show? He was on Oprah today helping her with her dog that is aggressive with other dogs and has separation anxiety.

I see some people don't like him and some people do. He did manage to get dogs next to Ophra's dog without her dog attacking the other dogs which she thought would be impossible. Some people feel it's impossible to change a dog during one show. I don't know if the show is taped over a few days, but I think he shows the dog's being fixed on one show.

I think I have to pay to get that channel. I'm not sure if it's on regular extended cable service. I guess I should call my cable company to find out.


Renee, I'm not sure if he was brough up already and if you had commented on him and his techniques. I was wondering if you had seen his show, what you thought of him.

Bye, Grace

[Vanessa Lee]

I've seen his show and don't really care for his methods. In one of the episodes I watched there was a dog that was afraid of cameras and using a choke chain he forced the dog to face the cameras. The dog looked very distressed during this and IMO there are methods other than "flooding" which work yet do not cause stress to the dog.
In this same episode he used a choke chain on the same dog for resource guarding...giving the dog a "correction" at each attempt it made to guard the resource (if I remember correctly, he was'nt fast enough and ended up getting nipped one of the times). IMO, there are other, more effective and much safer ways to modify such behavior. Using corrections could easily backfire. It could cause the dog to become even more uncomfortable with people around its prized possessions and the dog might learn to generalize that he can't get away with this behavior only when the choke collar is on or only when certain people are around.
I did'nt see the Oparah show and I've only seen a few of his "Dog Whisperer" episodes. I don't get the NG channel either but I had my mother tape it for me so I could see what all the hype was about.
Just my 2 cents.

[Renee]

Hi Grace

I did not see the Oprah episode today. I don't think many really appreciated the way Cesar handled some things on Oprah (especially the Separation Anxiety). Many don't appreciate the way he regularly handles things on his regular show (Some trainers/behaviorists wanted to petition Oprah and wanted to send Karen Pryor or Dr. Ian Dunbar or Trish King to the Oprah show, so the audience could see how a respected and educated behaviorist would handle a consult. Unfortunately, its too late for that...the show was taped a while ago and now it has been aired today. Again, this thing will run its course and that is all that we can hope for.

[aussiesmum]

If you are serious about writting Oprah, DO IT! From what I have seen on her show and stuff, she often does follow-up shows about things. I think she loves her furry babies enough to at least entertain (no pun intented) the idea. Will not hurt...

[Summer Magic]

Hi Renee

I agree with Lori go ahead and write, email or call her. I did watch the episode and thought man if I had tried flooding with Magic she'd have taken my arm off. After the discussions we have had here on DB regarding Cesar we respect your position and think that the world should know that there are alternate and safer methods to train a dog. Magic is doing very well with her aggression by the way.


Judy and Magic

[Jody Hayes]

I agree w/ you Judy. My dog Cliff is is/was very afraid of the vacuum...couldn't even bring it in the same room w/out him peeing. so we started just leaving it out and eventually started putting his toys closer and closer to it until we put the toys on the vacuum and treated him for going near the vacuum or getting the toy. He is still wary of it and leaves the room when I vacuum but he doesn't pee or run upstairs anymore. he stays away, but where he can watch me. We had the same problem w/ the broom until I started "sweeping treats and kibble":) Now I have to tell him to leave it:) It will all take a lot of time and patience because he has MANY fears, but I would rather do it all slowly and at his pace than the "flooding" technique. Renee you give so much good advice and I have used a lot of it! Thank you.

[Renee]

Hey guys,

Many are obviously very upset of the Oprah-Cesar episode. They might try to do something about it......we'll just have to wait and see if the ball gets rolling.

[Stefie C]

What if everyone here sent a brief email explaing their disappointment in her showcasing Cesar Milan's methods and encouraging her to explore +R training philosophy. She's a voracious reader so we could recommend some books and maybe next season she'll do a show about +R. :D I couldn't hurt to try.

[Grace Erick]

Renee, I'm not saying Oprah is cheap, but maybe she is a little and wanted Cesar on as a guest, but really as a free way of having him train her dog and have a show at the same time. She does use the services of some interior designers and has them on the show also, so they must do interior designing on her homes for free. I don't know if anyone ever watched that show The View where Star Jones had wedding people on the show, then they gave her free things for her wedding and it became a big controversy. Oprah doesn't know anything about Cesar Millan really I'm sure, except that he has his own show and is probably popular and her celebrity friends use him, so she thinks whatever he does is fine. She doesn't know any better.

I have seen someone on the internet start a huge list with names of people requesting Oprah to do a show on puppymills, which you would think she might want to do since I thought she had two cockerspaniels that were white and brown, but I just saw this black one on her show with Cesar Millan.

I would love to check out his show. I have to see if I know anyone who gets that channel to see what everyone is talking about. It would also be nice to know if the show is really done in one day without cutting and editing to make a week look like one days work. I believe he claims to fix dogs in one day from what I see people say.

I don't think Ophra would entertain having another dog trainer on her show to go up against Cesar Millan who is probably a friend of hers now and even if he wasn't, I don't think she would do an additional dog training show. Even though someone may show different and better training methods, it's just not controversial enough for her to do it and this guy is friends to her celebrity friends like Will Smith and others where he trained their dogs too.

Bye, Grace

[Grace Erick]

Hi Renee,

I meant to say the links you posted don't work for some reason when you click on them. I think it said url not found.

Bye, Grace

[Renee]

I fixed the links....they should work now...

[Maria Juliano]

I guess I'm the only one in here who finds Cesar Millan's methods UNIQUE and AVANTGARDE. Cesar REHABILITATES dogs and TRAINS the owners how to be the LEADER of the pack ( family.)

I have been following the show for a few weeks now. At first I was a bit skeptical because I didn't see Cesar following up with visits to check if the "wrong" dog's behavior was corrected or improved. Last week, National Geographic aired several shows showing follow up visits to the dogs and owners. All owners and dogs showed a tremendous improvement.

Here is his Philosophy and Bio: http://www.nationalgeograph ic.com/channel/dogwhisperer/philosophy.html



He may not have a "formal" education but he does have a NATURAL ability to rehabilitate dogs as a "LAST RESORT. " Where other dog trainers failed, Cesar seems to succeed !

Oprah is no dummy. She wouldn't let "an expert" come on her show unless she has done enough research on "him" . The last thing she wants is to have another "law suit" on her hands.

[aussiesmum]

He list part of his training with the "California Canine Academy" but I can only find vague references to this place (and a note on Brittany Spears' website about taking 2 GSD to learn attack/protection). Anybody know about this place?

[Renee]

I know that there are some Southern California Behaviorists that are working with Cesar's ex-clients. Cesar didn't "magically" rehabilitate them....

[Maria Juliano]

Actually, I just read another email...that there are more Southern Califronia Behaviorists that are working with Cesar's ex-clients. Cesar didn't "magically" rehabilitate them....he made the problem worse.....it's called behavioral fall-out.

Renee,

I haven't heard of Cesar's ex-clients having a "fall-out" and working with other trainers.

Cesar does not "magically" rehabilates dogs...he makes it CLEAR that it takes consistency and TIME on the part of the owner to correct the problem.

[Rachel]

I guess I'm the only one in here who finds Cesar Millan's methods UNIQUE and AVANTGARDE.

I completely agree with you! and I thought I was all alone. I have been TIVOing his show for a few weeks now. He has a real gift. He's not just working with everyday dogs and their problems its usually dogs with huge problems, the owners have tried everything and trainers have said that there is no hope. I like how he make a point to always say and show that he is not hurting the dog and his main points are very much common sense. I also love when they show him with his pack! You can see in every one of those dog's eyes that they really love him. I'm sure that he does follow ups but there is only so much you can show in 30mins and every once in a while they do show him going back to a dog to see how its going.

Anyways... just my :twocents:

[Casey Laurie]

I've never watched his show, but from reading on the site it does not look as though his philosophy is all that much different than those of most on this forum. Is the NG channel the only one that hosts his program?

[Rebekah Hartman]

I'm in a couple other discussion groups with many well-known authors and dog trainers and have read some other discussions about Cesar and his methods. The general consensus is that his methods are not as positive as they could be - the groups emphasize positive discussion and feedback, so the moderator made sure people didn't get too heated in their discussion (as far as Cesar-bashing), but focus on offering alternatives or positive solutions.

I saw clips from the Oprah show with Cesar and I personally thought his methods seemed confusing at best. It kind of reminds me how they used to "cure" nicotine addiction by making people smoke like 600 cigarettes in a row. Obviously, research has shown that there are better ways for humans - it makes sense that there might be better ways for dogs, too. I'm not saying that Cesar has nothing to offer, I don't know enough about him to say one way or another - I just think that even training basic behaviors takes TONS of time and consistency, so eliminating problem behaviors will take that much more dedication. To me, I couldn't even figure out what on earth he was trying to tell Oprah to do with the SA. Just coming back and yelling at the dog "No" would be really ineffective for my dog (he was whining A LOT in the mornings and we found ignoring the behavior - once all his basic needs were met - to be the "magic bullet" - NOT easy to do when you're trying to sleep, though).

Anyway, I guess if he has ideas for how to strengthen the bond between human and dog it's worth a shot, but I'd be careful not to buy into anything that isn't strictly positive because the effects are often not seen until a while down the road when there's often a really big problem on your hands.

[Hee Yung Lee]

I have been hearing great things about Cesar Millan. Renee, do you think that the reason why some of his ex clients have sought other trainers is because they were not following through with Cesar's training? I wonder how many trainers these people went to before Cesar? And I wonder if these people will be able to maintain results with their new trainer as well. I think that it could be possible that it has more to do with the dogs' owners, rather than Cesar's training methods.

[Renee]

Mr. Milan uses aversives to treat fear and aggression in dogs...... Repeatedly leash popping dogs with choke chains will make them suppress the behavior for that instant, but that will not solve the problem. Meeting canine aggression with human aggression is a dangerous game plan. These are not long term solutions for problems of this magnitude and fallout is the result. This is what many of the So. California trainers are seeing and are getting some of Mr. Milan's ex-clients. Also, many trainers/consultants have to watch this show because many clients are trying Mr. Milans techniques to the detriment of their dogs.

I think that there are many reasons that dog professionals for all kinds of backgrounds (+R/-P, +R/+P) are very upset over this show. I wish I had permission to cross post some of the emails for you guys. They have been very insightful. One of the main criticisms is that Mr. Milan's unskilled corrections are often inappropriate in scale (and sometimes made in anger), and also poorly timed. A poorly timed correction is not punishment, its abuse. Traditional trainers who use positve punishment techniques understand that there are rules and consequences to using punishment. One of the primary rules of punishment is it should only have to be applied a few times(2-3 x), else it is not an effective use of punishment. There are way too many instances where Mr. Milan has not stopped a behavior after 2-3 applications of punishment. I think a good example of this is the obsessive English Bulldog who was repeated leash popped until the Bulldog was exhausted. This isn't punishment, it's abuse. Plus, its an excellent way to damage a dog's esophagus. Mr. Milan has also karate chopped a dog in the throat and I really just don't understand why that is necessary. Another criticsim is that Mr. Milan doesn't give out very much praise. If you are going to use punishment to suppress behavior and train on avoidance behaviors, you still need to install the desired behavior and reward mark it.

So watch the show and analyze it for yourself. Please don't try any of his techniqes on your dogs... I have not seen every single episode, but I might start taping it...that way if anyone wants to talk about it, we can...

[Mario Niepel]

While I have seen a few of Mr. Milans shows, I am not familiar enough with his work to competently critique his techniques.

One thing to keep in mind though is this: Cesar Milan takes part in a TV show. What you see on the NG Channel is NOT a show to teach you how to train your dog. It is a show that is supposed to entice people to sit down in front of the TV and watch it, so the NG Channel can sell slots for TV ads. In addition, one should consider that Mr. Milans goal during these TV shows is not to educate the population or to train the dog in question. His primary goal is again to create a TV show.

This should immediately tell you that the show is not necessarily the right forum to learn things about how to train problem dogs. Information about failures of Mr. Milans techniques, long-term damage done to the dogs, even short term failures will not be part of this TV show.

I would recommend that you watch this TV show (any TV show for that matter) with these thoughts in mind. When it actually comes down to trying training techniques on your dog, make sure you acquire information from somewhere else. Read a general book about learning theory. While it might sound like dry subject matter, it does not have to be, and the basic concepts can be explained with just a few easy pages. Then read up on different specific ways to train your dogs and evaluate which ones make sense in light of what you now know about learning theory.

Just like it is dangerous to use Mr. Milan's show as a good basis for how to deal with problem dogs, in the same way it is dangerous to use Dr. Phil's show as a basis on how to deal with your depressed child or drug abusing mother.

[Maria Juliano]

While I have seen a few of Mr. Milans shows, I am not familiar enough with his work to competently critique his techniques.

One thing to keep in mind though is this: Cesar Milan takes part in a TV show. What you see on the NG Channel is NOT a show to teach you how to train your dog. It is a show that is supposed to entice people to sit down in front of the TV and watch it, so the NG Channel can sell slots for TV ads. In addition, one should consider that Mr. Milans goal during these TV shows is not to educate the population or to train the dog in question. His primary goal is again to create a TV show.

This should immediately tell you that the show is not necessarily the right forum to learn things about how to train problem dogs. Information about failures of Mr. Milans techniques, long-term damage done to the dogs, even short term failures will not be part of this TV show.

I would recommend that you watch this TV show (any TV show for that matter) with these thoughts in mind. When it actually comes down to trying training techniques on your dog, make sure you acquire information from somewhere else. Read a general book about learning theory. While it might sound like dry subject matter, it does not have to be, and the basic concepts can be explained with just a few easy pages. Then read up on different specific ways to train your dogs and evaluate which ones make sense in light of what you now know about learning theory.

Just like it is dangerous to use Mr. Milan's show as a good basis for how to deal with problem dogs, in the same way it is dangerous to use Dr. Phil's show as a basis on how to deal with your depressed child or drug abusing mother.


"The Dog Whisperer" is not about how to train dogs ourselves. It's stated on the beginning of the show: "Do not attempt Cesar's techniques yourself without consulting a professional. "
The show is about a man who has a NATURAL ability to relate, communicate and rehabilitate any dog... including those that have been doomed by vets, experts and trainers.

NG airs this show because Cesar has a UNIQUE approach to these unbalanced dogs and their owners... He is sought out ( in some cases ) as a "LAST RESORT."

Unique to Cesar's approach is his "Power of the Pack" method. Most dog trainers relate to one animal at a time, but Cesar often uses the pack itself—the natural social unit for canines—to rehabilitate a wayward dog. Incredibly, his pack of up to 50 dogs, which includes Rottweilers, pit bulls, and German shepherds, are able to live together harmoniously.

[Rebekah Hartman]

I spoke with a trainer recently who is very highly "decorated", if you will - she has several certifications and also rescues Labs that have gone on to win several agility titles (I'm not well-versed in the obedience/agility terminology, so I'm not sure if that's what they're called). Anyway, she mentioned potential problems with focusing too much on "alpha" and "pack" dynamics (not that they aren't valuable, but just to work on a relationship with your dog more than on establishing yourself as a sort of dictator). She mentioned that, once in a blue moon, a dog will come her way that is a true alpha and that they may appear to be a great family dog and work "within the system" for years and then one day attempt to establish themself as the alpha - often by doing something like attacking someone in the family.

If training has focused on aversives and inconsistent messages instead of on building a strong relationship (in which the dog receives consistent, positive feedback for desired behaviors - so they know what TO do, not just what NOT to do), it would seem only natural that the dog might challenge the structure (or lack thereof) he/she is living within. I've seen many shows on Animal Planet (I think Animal Cops, maybe) in which they've worked to rehabilitate very aggressive dogs to save them from being euthanized and they don't use aversive techniques at all. AND, they often do rehabilitate the dogs. There is a science behind training (which has impacted the field of human psychology greatly), so I'd be more likely to stick with that than with someone's "instinct" - especially when they cannot back it up with data/evidence to support that it works, or works long-term anyway.

[Rebekah Hartman]

I also wanted to add something else... I was talking with one of my patients today about my dog chewing on a piece of antique furniture and how frustrated I was about it. Anyway, she proceeded to tell me about a neighbor they had that told them to get your dog to stop digging, you need to fill their mouth with dirt and tie it closed for 5 minutes. Each time the dog dug in the yard, she did this - only took a couple times and the dog gave up digging for good.

Then she told me how her dog was chewing the leg of her new table, so she put the table leg in the dog's mouth and tied the dog's mouth closed around the table leg and left her there for 5 minutes. What do you know? The dog was "cured" - she never did it again!

[Mario Niepel]

Rebekah, just as a side note, true Alpha Dogs are hardly every problem dogs. True Alphas are masters at de-escalation of conflict, very self confident and do generally not get into fights. That's why some animal trainers who are blessed with having a true Alpha use them to rehabilitate aggressive and poorly socialized dogs. The dogs that are generally the problem dogs are Betas (or Alpha wannabes).

It is truly amazing to watch this in action. Even though these aggressive dogs threaten the Alpha, bark and are incredibly rude, the Alpha just stands there and deescalates the situation by giving calming signals until the aggressive dog realizes that the bullying is not getting the usual response.

Turid Rurgaas describes this beautiful display in one of her books, and there was an episode of 'Dogs with Jobs' (I think) where they showed a true Alpha in action. It was very much of an epiphany when one compares this behavior to how we foolishly try to assert our Alpha status.

[Rebekah Hartman]

That makes a lot of sense, Mario. Perhaps the dogs that can end up with the biggest problems resulting from negative-focused, inconsistent training aren't "true alphas" at all.

One of the dogs we interact with on a regular basis is very much the alpha among the 3 or 4 dogs (my neighbors), and he is very secure in his position and does not tend to feel the need to constantly "assert" himself. He's not usually too impressed with my crazy puppy (more a factor of his age than anything), but he let's him know where he stands with little effort. I don't know if Samson always gets the message right away, but he's a little clueless at times.

I kind of just wanted to highlight the importance of building a strong human-dog bond and also the fact that a lot of techniques can be used to "miraculously" cure problem behaviors, but clearly the extra effort required to shape a positive behavior would be far better than the alternative in many circumstances!

[Maria Juliano]

I watch Animal Cops every night on the AP. You said:

I've seen many shows on Animal Planet (I think Animal Cops, maybe) in
which they've worked to rehabilitate very aggressive dogs to save them from
being euthanized and they don't use aversive techniques at all. AND,
they often do rehabilitate the dogs.

I wish that were true...

On almost all shows I watched, the very agressive dogs aren't even dealt with... They are declared by the Animal Shelter of the city "non adoptive" and euthanized. They don't even try even with the ones that show "little aggression." Since these shelters are non profit, they don't have the funds to "rehabilate aggressive dogs."

[Casey Laurie]

I've seen one where they actually did do that. I was very surprised, and hoped that perhaps they might have some sort of a program that could also be piloted at other shelters. I know that if our shelters had the space and grants to do that I would definitely make time to volunteer.

I wonder what it would take to put together a plan and proposal?

I don't remember the dog as being "very aggressive" (that's subjective in itself anyway) though, just a few issues to deal with. I've also seen other dogs (victims of abuse/neglect) pass the test that I wouldn't dare adopt out without the dog going through an experienced foster home first.
I really don't trust temperment tests in general though, as there are just too many factors to account for.

[Maria Juliano]

Rebekah, just as a side note, true Alpha Dogs are hardly every problem dogs. True Alphas are masters at de-escalation of conflict, very self confident and do generally not get into fights. That's why some animal trainers who are blessed with having a true Alpha use them to rehabilitate aggressive and poorly socialized dogs. The dogs that are generally the problem dogs are Betas (or Alpha wannabes).

It is truly amazing to watch this in action. Even though these aggressive dogs threaten the Alpha, bark and are incredibly rude, the Alpha just stands there and deescalates the situation by giving calming signals until the aggressive dog realizes that the bullying is not getting the usual response.

Turid Rurgaas describes this beautiful display in one of her books, and there was an episode of 'Dogs with Jobs' (I think) where they showed a true Alpha in action. It was very much of an epiphany when one compares this behavior to how we foolishly try to assert our Alpha status.


Mario,

Great post!

That is exactly what Cesar Millan claims:

true Alpha Dogs are hardly ever the problem dog. True Alphas are masters at de-escalation of conflict, very self confident and do generally not get into fights.

We, dog owners could learn a lot from the TRUE Alpha dogs on how to be more assertive and True leaders to our dogs.

[Mario Niepel]

That is exactly what Cesar Millan claims:

'true Alpha Dogs are hardly ever the problem dog. True Alphas are masters at de-escalation of conflict, very self confident and do generally not get into fights.'

We, dog owners could learn a lot from the TRUE Alpha dogs on how to be more assertive and True leaders to our dogs.

I didn't really want to get involved in critiquing Cesar Milan, but here I go anyway. Even though Cesar might state this (TRUE Alpha dogs on how to be more assertive and True leaders to our dogs), it is NOT what Cesar actually does. He does NOT act like an Alpha dog. His constant administration of leash pops and other forms of correction would be waaaaay beneath an Alpha dog to even get involved. Continuous corrections and aggression are signs of Betas or Alpha Wannabes.

But, I agree with you. We can learn a lot from understanding the social dynamics of dog-dog interactions. It is just not easy to actually understand the complexities and intricacies of these interactions. I certainly don't understand it all. :(

[Maria Juliano]

I didn't really want to get involved in critiquing Cesar Milan, but here I go anyway. Even though Cesar might state this (TRUE Alpha dogs on how to be more assertive and True leaders to our dogs), it is NOT what Cesar actually does. He does NOT act like an Alpha dog. His constant administration of leash pops and other forms of correction would be waaaaay beneath an Alpha dog to even get involved. Continuous corrections and aggression are signs of Betas or Alpha Wannabes.

But, I agree with you. We can learn a lot from understanding the social dynamics of dog-dog interactions. It is just not easy to actually understand the complexities and intricacies of these interactions. I certainly don't understand it all. :(

I couldn't agree with you more...

We can learn a lot from understanding the social dynamics of dog-dog interactions. It is just not easy to actually understand the complexities and intricacies of these interactions.

This is why "The Dog Whisperer", Cesar Millan's show is so fascinating to me...I can see ( personally) how he understands a dog's role in a pack versus in an owner's home. As I said in another post, " It's all a matter of perception."

[Lesly Stevens]

I was dumbfounded when I saw Cesear Milan on Oprah's show! I remember when I first discovered his 30-min. segments on the Nat'l Geographic channel, and thought, wow! This guy is fabulous! After viewing several, I became more and more frustrated, and concluded that he has a lot of natural talent in communicating with dogs, but his pat answers (rather vague, really) to clients got on my nerves! His simplistic statements covered every single problem of every single dog with varied issues, and when I saw the first leash pop, that was it for me. I about fell over when Oprah introduced him. What a disappointment! Disappointment in Oprah, and in the content of the subject matter. Once again, pat, simplistic answers! (Oprah, what were you thinking?!!!!)

Alpha pack leader? Ok, but I find it amusing how some folks take that to the extreme, and are so rigid in their thinking/beliefs! My dogs are dogs, not wolves, they know I'm not a dog, I don't feel the least bit compelled to dominate them, and they're not trying to take over when they behave like dogs! When my high prey drive female chooses me over that squirrel when I call her in, I feel very flattered! That I sometimes have to say "NOW!" in order to get her to move it, doesn't bother me in the least! I wouldn't dream of using aversive tactics to make her jump when I said jump.

Certainly, I respect the time and effort that trainers and behaviorists put into earning their credentials, but I have met and known some phenominal people whose natural skill with animals was amazing (and beautiful to witness), so Cesear's lack of credentials, as mentioned in previous posts, is not what bothers me. What comes to my mind when I think of him is his simplistic, pat answers - sort've like Paris answering everything with, "that's hot." Duh.

[Debbie Chastain]

Cesar Millan does have a gift when it comes to understanding and communicating with canines. As for not going into into more depth with his philosophies, I have heard him appologize for the fact that he is still learning english and sometimes has trouble finding the right words. There is a glossary of terms on The National Geographic site, so people can understand what he means when he uses a word like "balanced" to describe a stable dog on his show. This is a young man, give him some time. I'm sure he will go into more depth when his book comes out.

There is a basic concept I personally use when I try to explain the idea of pack structure to people who are having trouble relating to their dogs.

"The leadership position is one of action and decision making. The follower position is one of reaction. If your dog views you as pack-leader, they will be the one reacting. If the dog views themself as the pack-leader, (no matter how you might think or feel about it!), you will be functioning in the reactionary position."

This seems to help people understand their interactions with their dogs, without me having to go into a long explanation of pack hierarchy and training theories.

After reading through a lot of discussions, some right here in the Doggie Bag forums, it's easy to see how complicated things can get. How could a regular lay-person wade through all of the different viewpoints and training philosophies? Dogs would probably get a good laugh over the whole thing. But then, we seem to be the ones complicating everything. Dogs keep it simple.

[Grace Erick]

My view is a dog is like a child where they do whatever they want, not to necessarily dominate or rule the house, but just to get what they want with no real meaning attached to it. Maybe this is not always true when a child is older and a dog is older and learns how to manipulate you and may try to become dominant if you don't give them any rules to live by.

I don't know if there is a professional word for it, but I don't dominate my dog. I use psychology. I work with her natural instincts to lead her in a particular direction I want her to go in.

Bye, Grace

[Debbie Chastain]

From what I've gathered from both the equine,(horses), and the canine,(dogs), worlds, is this:

"Whispering" is a generally accepted description of communicating with an animal on their own terms, and, (as close as we can approximate), in their own "language".

It sounds like this is what you're doing. This is almost an intuition, or a feeling rather than a specific slyle of training and/or conditioning to commands.

[Maria Juliano]

Cesar Millan does have a gift when it comes to understanding and communicating with canines. As for not going into into more depth with his philosophies, I have heard him appologize for the fact that he is still learning english and sometimes has trouble finding the right words. There is a glossary of terms on The National Geographic site, so people can understand what he means when he uses a word like "balanced" to describe a stable dog on his show. This is a young man, give him some time. I'm sure he will go into more depth when his book comes out.

There is a basic concept I personally use when I try to explain the idea of pack structure to people who are having trouble relating to their dogs.

"The leadership position is one of action and decision making. The follower position is one of reaction. If your dog views you as pack-leader, they will be the one reacting. If the dog views themself as the pack-leader, (no matter how you might think or feel about it!), you will be functioning in the reactionary position."

This seems to help people understand their interactions with their dogs, without me having to go into a long explanation of pack hierarchy and training theories.

After reading through a lot of discussions, some right here in the Doggie Bag forums, it's easy to see how complicated things can get. How could a regular lay-person wade through all of the different viewpoints and training philosophies? Dogs would probably get a good laugh over the whole thing. But then, we seem to be the ones complicating everything. Dogs keep it simple.

Debbie,

I totally agree with you...

we seem to be the ones complicating everything. Dogs keep it simple.

If you don't mind me asking: what is your background? You sound experienced in canine behavior.

[Debbie Chastain]

In the spirit of keeping this thread on topic, I'll put some information about my background in the "Doggie Chat" area.

[Kathie Compton]

It never ceases to amaze me what dog owners will subject their dogs to in the name of training. Why would anybody who loved their dog tape a table leg in its mouth to stop it from chewing? Sure it works (for some dogs), but why not do something that works just as well and is less aversive? In most cases the answer to that is because it takes more thought and effort on the part of the owner. We live in an "instant" society where people want results *now*.

Personally, I disagree with most of what Cesar Milan does. I met several trainers in LA this year who had been called by his celebrity clients after his quick fixes failed. Oddly enough, one of these clients was Will Smith. His wife was also shown as a Milan client on that segment of Oprah. IMO, Mr. Milan has done a crack job of marketing himself and I can't fault him for that. He uses trendy, "fuzzy words" that mean whatever his trend concious clients *want* them to mean, and so establishes instant rapport.

It would be my hope that if I ever had my own TV show, my diclaimer could read something other than "Don't Try This At Home".

[Debbie Chastain]

It's my understanding that Mr. Smith's dogs, (rotties, I believe). Kept coming back to Cesar's facility for "refresher" courses. This leads me to believe there was no follow-up on the part of the owners. Unless you're dealing with rescue dogs, behavior problems seem to both begin and end with the owners, in the home enviroment.

[Debbie Chastain]

Hello all,

I received Cesar's DVD last week. I'm glad to report it runs a disclaimer, and Cesar suggests people find their own trainer pretty much right off the bat. The DVD contains information, in Cesar's own word's, on how our behavior affects our dog and that we are usually the source of behavior problems.

The DVD does not promote any specific training techniques, and there's no "hands on" work with any dogs, past what you might catch in a brief clip.

For the most part, the DVD was similar to what Cesar presented at his seminar, only with more information on how our behavior is viewed by our dog, based on how dogs think and naturally interact with each other, not on how we think or feel about it.

This first DVD seems to help fill in some blanks, for the regular dog owner, who had been watching his show. Although, Cesar's show has been put out there for entertainment, it IS shaking things up for both trainers and owners. I found the DVD to be responsible in it's content.

Since, my interest is in dog rehabititation and communication, based on the use of a dog's own language, rather than "training", I'm always left wanting more! But, Cesar isn't the only one out there doing this and more people are starting to put their dog's mental, emotional, and physical well being ahead of their own emotional neediness.

Sorry, if I haven't been around for awhile. This site promote's positive only training, and while I understand the need for this to keep people and pets safe, my interest's combine a lot of different training philosophies and communication techniques. I have no wish to offend or upset anyone.

[Robert]

Hi Debbie
Well your last post was quiet interesting. I would like to now what your veiws on ceasers type of training verses positive reinforcement. Thanks Bobby

[Debbie Chastain]

Robert,

How much time to you have? LOL!

I will share with you what I know, but have you read through this entire thread and watched any of Cesar's shows? If you will also go to the thread I sent Maria, (which I posted, so as to not get off topic in this thread), then I will feel comfortable sharing more information. I have no wish to repeat myself.

If you could address a specific topic, or ask a specific question, that would also be of help to me. I have no desire to write a book, either.

Forgive me if I sound abrupt or clinical. Things are just a little hectic for me right now!

Debbie

[Laura Redhawk]

With trainers like this guy, I have to wonder about their evident need to inflict POWER OVER instead of working towards creating a positive learning opportunity. (And WHO ELSE in their lives gets to experience their strange and abusive personality traits???)

I've been working with dogs and horses for over 30 years and what has been described about this trainer is even more OLD SCHOOL MENTALITY than I was subjected to learning about! It's an abusive waste of time as far as I'm concerned.

Especially when dealing with an animal that is in a "fearful" state regarding something, WHY would anyone want to use force? In what way will using force create a POSITIVE learning opportunity? How will it add to the trust foundation between you and the animal? Trust is a MUTUAL thing. In training, we hope to teach a lesson and create a level of trust that will allow us to feel confident that the animal will DO the desired behavior in a consistent manner, when asked or in some cases...remember NOT to do something when we are not there to remind or support them. (Such as housetraining!)

By the same token our dog learns to trust in our behaviors, we become accountable in ways that while dogs don't posses the higher REASONING abilities that we do, are none-the-less valued by the dog. Sort of a Positive behavior on our part helps to produce a positive behavior on the animal's part mentality, if you will.

This is another reason I am a big fan of REDIRECTING an undesired or "negative" behavior to one that IS acceptable and positive. Life should be FUN not full of stress...that's my story and I'm sticking to it!
Wags
Laura

[Debbie Chastain]

Cesar is not a dog "trainer". If you have no interest in learning about canine body language, and how to use it while interacting with your dog. That is a personal choice you will have to make. If you don't like Cesar, his methods, or his show, don't watch it.

[Mario Niepel]

Cesar is not a dog "trainer". If you have no interest in learning about canine body language, and how to use it while interacting with your dog. That is a personal choice you will have to make. If you don't like Cesar, his methods, or his show, don't watch it.

Debbie, even though both the DVD and the TV show have a disclaimer that they are for entertainment purposes only, Cesar Milan certainly IS a dog trainer and he advocates certain training methods.

By looking at posts on multiple message boards it becomes clear that the disclaimer does not actually do the job it should do. People watch Cesar perform 'miracles' on TV and think that his techniques are good ways to achieve similar miracles at home. This most often ends in failure. And, by reports from the dog training community in Southern California, even the people who specifically hire Cesar Milan as a dog trainer, end up with additional problems that then have to be 'fixed' by more work from behaviorists.

Now, I have not seen Cesar's DVD, so I can not comment specifically on its conetent. If it just shows dogs interacting with dogs or dogs interacting with people, then it is probably a great tool. However, if it is permeated by the same comments that Cesar makes on his TV show, then I can only assume it will lead to the same misperceptions as the TV show does.

[Renee]

If anyone wants to learn more about canine communication and body language, I have a few great resources that I would recommend. On talking terms with Dogs:Calming Signals by Turid Rugaas (she is considered the foremost expert on this topic) - there is a book and a VHS tape. Aggression in Dogs by Brenda Aloff has many pages of great information that explain canine body language and communication.

Also, if anyone ever has the opportunity to visit the Wolf Park in Battle Ground, IN or take a seminar there- do it! Those people there are amazing. You will learn so much about dog/wolf body language and communication that it will knock your socks off. Pat Goodman (lead researcher) is one of the most amazing people when it comes to reading wolf body language. Wolf Park gave me a 50 page wolf ethogram that sums up 30+ years of their behavioral observations with captive wolves. Much of that information on behavior and communication falls in line with Turid Rugaas's explaination on Calming Signals.

Happy reading!

[Debbie Chastain]

It would be nice to see disclaimers on "prong collars", too! LOL! But people will be people, and the world is not a perfect place.

I completely understand where a lot of trainers are coming from, since Cesar's show airred. Huge numbers of people are watching it. But it's out there and I would rather share what information I can, (if anyone is sincerely interested in learning about what is really going on), than to just sit back and wonder why would anyone throw away a chance to learn something about how dogs communicate and how our body language can counteract what we are trying to accomplish during a "training" session with our dog. Even more than that, learning canine body language can help people who are using corrections, to stop using them altogether! Why would someone want to use a leash, if you could communicate dissaproval with just a look? If you can try to not look Cesar's methods from a "training" point of view, there is a lot more being communicated here, on a level most people just don't get...yet. ( Yes, Cesar does use leash corrections).

If ignorance is the lack of knowledge, then stupidity is the blind refusal of knowledge offered. I don't ever mind being ignorant, but I'll boot myself in the rear if I'm acting stupid...believe me, I've been there!

I don't agree with all of the things Cesar does. But, I realize the dogs he works with on his show are usually very extreme cases, who have been messed up by someone else along the way. All of the dogs in his pack were these types of dogs. I'm sure there weren't a lot of people lining up to adopt those dogs. Most of them were heading straight to doggie death row, and fast! When a dog is started out right in the beginning using canine communication techniques in addition to "training", the results can be wonderful for both dog and owner. We need to do what's best for them when we bring them into our world as family members and friends.

I'm more than happy to share what I know, if people can get a grip on their fear, and try and discuss how canine communication can be applied in "training" situations, or even just daily interactions with their dogs.

Well, I will check back with you, from time to time. There aren't a lot of us out there doing this right now, and those of us who are, are getting very busy. I will no longer reply to any nonconstrutive threads or comments on this topic. There are other forums I am involved with, and my time is at a premium.

Sincerely,

Debbie Chastain

[Renee]

I almost forgot.....Dog Language an encylopedia of canine behavior by Roger Abrantes is another excellent resource

[Renee]

I completely understand where a lot of trainers are coming from, since Cesar's show airred.

It's not just trainers...its behaviorists and ethologists that also have huge a problem with it...

Even more than that, learning canine body language can help people who are using corrections, to stop using them altogether! Why would someone want to use a leash, if you could communicate dissaproval with just a look? If you can try to not look Cesar's methods from a "training" point of view, there is a lot more being communicated here, on a level most people just don't get...yet. ( Yes, Cesar does use leash corrections).

I certainly agree that everyone can benefit from understanding canine communication. Cesar is very good at some of this, but I think her could certainly benefit from reading Calming Signals by Turid Rugaas or perhaps he should take the time to study wolves with Pat Goodman and Dr. Erich Klinghamer (they have been researching this topic since 1972). I don't want to get into a big talk about methodologies, but Cesar would then see that when he issues corrections that are both inappropriate in scale and mis-timed, he would then be able to read the dogs who are throwing calming/cut-off signals at him...


There aren't a lot of us out there doing this right now, and those of us who are, are getting very busy.

Actually, there are lots of behaviorists (some of which are also ethologists) that are into canine communication and language. I'm of member of the many profession dog training message boards and it is definitely a well discussed topic. I'm very glad to see that you are into canine language also!

Later,

[Debbie Chastain]

Renee,

Thanks for your "positive" comments and information. There are probably a lot of viewer hits on this site from people finding this forum through an internet search about Cesar. You have now provided them with an informative opportunity to learn more about canine communication and body language.

I'm a lover of wolves and spent many of my younger years reading everything I could get my hands on about their behavior and family, (pack), life. I truely wish I could have been in your shoes at the Wolf Park!

To me the ethical treatment of animals, is providing for all of their needs, based on what's best for them, not what's best for us.

[Daniela Jantzen]

....To me the ethical treatment of animals, is providing for all of their needs, based on what's best for them, not what's best for us....

I love this sentence! :)
And I hope more people will follow your lead.

Danny

[Monique Shimm]

I've watched almost every episode of Cesar's show. And I don't agree with everything that he does (for example he used flooding on a Great Dane, and he literally held a small dog down while he trimed the hair out of its eyes).

However, his training methods do not use an over abundance of leash pops. In fact, he usually makes a "psh't" sound with his mouth and holds the leash so the dog actually "pops" himself if it pulls. Also, I have seen him use treats to coax a dog into a bath tub to get over its fear of water. I have seen him use his hands (gently petting a dog) to desensitize a dog from touch. Yes, he does maintain the alpha dog theory... but he says that he treats all his dogs the same and there is only one leader (himself). So he doesn't feed one dog first, for example, to maintain a heirarchy. I have only seen him do an alpha roll once - an a chiwuwa (sp?) (Not really a fair thing (safe thing) to do to a small dog. But he makes recommendations for the dog itself, not all dogs.)

He often will look to the owner of the dog and decide what is going wrong. For example, there was a woman who owned a weinmeriner who had severe separation anxiety. Cesar deduced that it was this woman's "un-natural" dependance on the dog for love etc. that was causing the dog anxiety and stress. He councilled her to treat her dog like a dog (loving it, caring for it, but letting it be a dog rather than a human - ie not responsible for this woman's needs).

And above all, he is a strong proponent of exercise - that solves many, many problems. And that a tired dog is more likely to accept desensitizing or any other rehabilitation method.

He also uses the tools of the owner - meaning if they have a prong collar, he uses that. If they have a buckle collar, he uses that.

Again, I don't agree with everything he does. But I don't think its useful when his methods are incorrectly described.