Echo, Jessie and Zia, please help

[Jen Greaves]

I posted on doggie doors but didn't have enough time to get any reply
so here goes again! And again I am soo sorry about the length!
My family now is Jessie 12yrs (lab/springer/collie), Zia 4yrs (shepherd), Echo 2yrs (huskey/lab/wolf), Spaz 10yrs (big cat), Storm 9yrs (fat cat). The dogs are all girls, the cats are boys, all fixed except Echo.
I've had all of them since they were babies except Zia who I took in one year ago after she had been abused and neglected. House training a full grown shepherd wasn't the funnest thing I've done!! She's doing very good now. The pecking order is Jessie, Echo and Zia at the bottom, it has been like this since the first day Zia came home. The pecking order before her was still Jessie then Echo. Zia is not my problem though, I wanted everyone to know her story incase it's playing a part in this.
Up until almost two weeks ago everything was great, never a fight. About two weeks after Echo's last heat (her third) she attacked Jessie three times over about five days. Once inside (not bloody) and twice outside (bloody). Zia stays completely out of the fights, and as far as I can tell has nothing to do with instigating them. My vet told me they have to figure it out for themselves, in about five seconds the last fight was very bloody, Echo was ripping Jessie apart so I stopped it, actually I stopped all of the fights. Jessie is now staying at my parents house until she is healed (almost there!!) and Echo is fixed. My vet took one look at Jessie and said he should remove Echo's canines when he fixes her. This is something I'm having a problem with, I live in the country, what if she has to defend herself? And it just seems drastic. At the same time I don't want Jessie to get torn up anymore. I have started Echo and Zia on nilif about a week ago and Echo is doing very well, Zia is a bit slower. Should I remove Echo's canines?? Why is Echo suddenly attacking Jessie?? Could it just be hormones??? I should also say that Echo circles Jessie with all of the fur on her back up, what does this behaviour mean??
Is it a challenge?? I will do anything, aside from finding new homes. I want all my girls to stay with me, as much work as that may take. Please, please any advice will help.

[Maria Juliano]

I posted on doggie doors but didn't have enough time to get any reply
so here goes again! And again I am soo sorry about the length!
My family now is Jessie 12yrs (lab/springer/collie), Zia 4yrs (shepherd), Echo 2yrs (huskey/lab/wolf), Spaz 10yrs (big cat), Storm 9yrs (fat cat). The dogs are all girls, the cats are boys, all fixed except Echo.
I've had all of them since they were babies except Zia who I took in one year ago after she had been abused and neglected. House training a full grown shepherd wasn't the funnest thing I've done!! She's doing very good now. The pecking order is Jessie, Echo and Zia at the bottom, it has been like this since the first day Zia came home. The pecking order before her was still Jessie then Echo. Zia is not my problem though, I wanted everyone to know her story incase it's playing a part in this.
Up until almost two weeks ago everything was great, never a fight. About two weeks after Echo's last heat (her third) she attacked Jessie three times over about five days. Once inside (not bloody) and twice outside (bloody). Zia stays completely out of the fights, and as far as I can tell has nothing to do with instigating them. My vet told me they have to figure it out for themselves, in about five seconds the last fight was very bloody, Echo was ripping Jessie apart so I stopped it, actually I stopped all of the fights. Jessie is now staying at my parents house until she is healed (almost there!!) and Echo is fixed. My vet took one look at Jessie and said he should remove Echo's canines when he fixes her. This is something I'm having a problem with, I live in the country, what if she has to defend herself? And it just seems drastic. At the same time I don't want Jessie to get torn up anymore. I have started Echo and Zia on nilif about a week ago and Echo is doing very well, Zia is a bit slower. Should I remove Echo's canines?? Why is Echo suddenly attacking Jessie?? Could it just be hormones??? I should also say that Echo circles Jessie with all of the fur on her back up, what does this behaviour mean??
Is it a challenge?? I will do anything, aside from finding new homes. I want all my girls to stay with me, as much work as that may take. Please, please any advice will help.

Hi,

I'm no expert, but Renee Premaza was an advisor at DD under defensive dogs. She is here now and ready to help, answer questions related to defensive dogs Perhaps, you can move this to the Defensive Dog Forum, or send her a private message. I'm sure she'll be glad to give you an expert's opinion.

Good luck,


Maria Juliano

[heathea]

I remember reading this post. I tried to post a reply but I guess the site had started to have problems at that point. I don't know. I do remember stating DO NOT REMOVE THE DOGS CANINES! and you might want to find a new vet. That would be the last resort and I mean last right before putting your dog to sleep. Your vet shouldn't have even suggested it, it would be like cutting off a leg to stop a limp. just stupid. You are doing the right thing about NILIF, but you might want to look into getting a professional trainer. If you can't afford it, I completely understand but it is a good way to start. Definately get your dog fixed. I wish you luck and I hope you get some more help on the defensive dogs forum.
Take care.
Heather

[heathea]

Also, do not let the dogs spend any time together. seperate them. Let them out at seperate times and keep them seperated for (if I remember right) 6 weeks and then start a re-introduction program where they can see each other, but not touch each other. baby gates are very helpful. I know this sounds like a pain in the butt, but it is just what you need to do to make things better. After a few weeks where they can see each other but not touch allow some time together supervised. You may still want to let them out seperately. Eventually things should calm down. Definately keep them seperated immediately after the spay as she will be uncomfortable and more likely to snip/bite.

Good luck.
Heather

[Amber]

My friend has 4 Australian Sheperds, one of which is an Alpha (the highest in the pecking order as you put it) Once in a while, one of the others will try to compete for her position and that dog will get a little bloody. It sounds like the same thing is happening to Jessie and Echo. It sounds like, to me, Echo is trying to take over Jessie's position as Alpha. My friend is a professional dog trainer, so she doesn't keep her dogs seperated, and I've never heard of that rule, but you may want to think about that if the fights are bad enough. Please don't take out the canines though...you DO live in the country and I agree with you...Echo may have to defend herself at some point, in which case she won't be able to if she doesn't have them! Your vet should have thought about that before suggesting that! Also, have you tried taking them to obedience classes? My friend has trained all of her dogs to the fullest extent, considering she's a dog trainer. That may help you when they not only START to go into "fight mode" (circling and whatnot), but you can stop them in the middle of a fight if you don't catch the circling or whatever, with ONE word! I've seen it work.

[heathea]

What I meant by the seperating them thing was to seperate them for a ceratin amount of time as there is a chemical released in the brain after a dog fight and until that chemical is re-absorbed the dogs should be unable to play together. I remember reading that on doggie door. It is just a way to have the dogs start fresh together. The training is definately worth pursuing and I wish you luck with all of it, however in my humble opinion your first steps would be to calm everyone down, yourself included as a dog fight will cause havok for weeks. Take care and I hope you posted this into the defensive dog section.
Good luck.

[Jen Greaves]

Thank you everyone! I posted this in defensive dogs as well. I'm not taking out the canines and my vet was more worried about Jessie than Echo, she was ripped up pretty bad, he was trying to save Jessie not hurt Echo. I actually got Jessie from him when she was a baby :D
Anyways, I don't know about an obedience class for Echo. More of her story: I got her when whe was 9 wks, she was socialized with other dogs and not really people. She had worms and she would pee when other people were too close. We've gotten past that, there has even been two people now that have been able to pet her on their first visit! Major progress! It's taken two years though. I do spend some "training time" with my girls almost every day, usually just little "refreshers". We also go running almost every day. Right now Echo and I are working on sledding commands, I've never been able to stop her from pulling on a leash so instead of fighting her on the leash we're going to try skijor, if she wants to pull so bad so be it :lol:.
Echo will be getting fixed on the 23. The two weeks of separation will be over so I'll be bringing Jessie home as well (she's still at gradma's :D ), or should I wait until Echo is healed? Can Jessie be here but separated with a baby gate? I read about the chemical in the brain that releases but was it two weeks or six? Nilif progress is good. Thanks again everyone for your ideas and help!!

[heathea]

I cannot honestly remember if it is 2 or 6 weeks. I would wait until Echo is healed if possible. Dogs who are sick/injured/healing are much more likely to bite. I would definately put up a barrier like a baby gate between them for a few weeks. Slow introduction is always best, if there are any aggressive behaviors, slow down and go back a step. Good luck and I hope you get more info at the defensive section.
Take care and I have always wanted to try skijoring too. It looks like big big fun.

[Amber]

I knew what you meant when you said seperating them...I read all about it on a thread on Doggie Door...and it's 6 weeks. What she is doing is submissive peeing, by the way. My poodle does it. Her case isn't as a severe case as yours, but that's what it sounds like to me. There was a really good article on building confidence in Shy dogs on Doggie Door. I saved in. If you would like it, you can private message me your email address and I'll send it to you. It has really helped with my rescue dog, Sally!