Failed temperment test

[Casey Laurie]

Hi,

We have a potential foster coming to us. She's a bit of a personal case, and we really don't want to see her get put down. She was a law enforcement seizure and subsequent surrender. We had her for a night and had no problems with her.
Apparently after she went back to the shelter they gave her her first temperment test and she failed for food agression (she was neglected and starved and they expect her to have no food issues? :confused: )

She was at the shelter for two months. Prior to that she was kept outside at all times in all weather with no vet care, no training whatsoever, malnourished, and living in filth.
She was finally surrendered but failed temperment testing again today. The behaviorist said it was the worst food agression she had ever seen.

We understand that there is a honeymoon period and it has definitely ended, but isn't it possible that "worst I've ever seen" is completely subjective? I mean, I was able to give and take rawhides, pull a chicken bone out of her mouth, give her a bath, play tug...she loved all the attention and all I saw was a great dog that would make some lucky family very happy someday.
We're worried she may have picked up bad habits from our own dogs that day. We have two dachshunds with behavior issues of their own (both rescues as well) that we actively work on.

My husband goes to walk her every day, and today also noticed she was urinating, or attempting to urinate quite frequently. If she has a medical issue, wouldn't that excaserbate(sp? any behavioral issues she has?

We explained to them that we are experienced with behavioral issues and do know what our personal limitations are where dealing with those issues is concerned. But are we kidding ourselves into thinking we can rehabilitate this dog to be adoptable? We'd just like the chance to find out. The manager said he'd think about it and let us know in the morning. We got our fear aggressive dog from them and are dealing with him just fine. I don't want to second guess the behaviorist, but we would just like to understand what she saw to decide for ourselves if we can deal with it or not. they are concerned about liability. I understand that too. I'll sign whatever I need to sign.

It's not like we have the typical 2 income household. I stay at home so I have the time to devote to training her and reconditioning her. We also have reasonable expectations of what we can accomplish and deal with. If we cannot handle her issues I would most certainly bring her back, albeit with a broken heart.

I guess I just needed a sympathetic shoulder. My stomach is in knots right now. This is a very special dog, and she deserves a chance at a good life with a family who will love her and care for her.

[Amber]

My situatioin is a little similiar to yours:

Sally (her pic is my avatar) was 1 of 32 dogs that this lady had. For some reason, the lady decided to surrender 6 of the dogs. She could find 5 of the dogs she wanted to surrender, but the 6th (Sally) she couldn't find because she was under the woman's trailer in some discarded insulation. Sally had demodectic mange and was severely dehydrated. Sally was 6 months old when she was surrendered, luckily to a no-kill shelter, and had NO human contact up to that point although the lady said Sally was her "favorite" (explain that one!!) I was told when I started to volunteer at the shelter (about a year later) that one of the other dogs that the lady surrendered died and Sally was on the verge of death because she was so dehydrated when she came in (they were retelling the story).

The shelter owner took Sally to the vet and got her spayed and got her mange under control. I started volunteering at the shelter when Sally was about a year old. She wouldn't let anyone touch her and she refused to come out of her crate for anyone. They would leave the room, let her use the bathroom on the floor, and then clean up after her because she was deathly afraid of the outdoors (shaking like a leaf everytime we set her outside). Eventually I started working with her, sitting in front of her crate 20 minutes at a time with half my body in and half out petting her. I did this for half the summer. Eventually, she got to the point when she saw me coming, she would go to the front of the cage...even following behind me when I walked around the room! If I looked at her, she would dash in her crate though. I asked my mom if I could foster her so she could used to being in a regular house, with people and ONE other dog. (My motive was for my mom to fall in love and for us to adopt her... :rolleyes: )

Two months later, I got my wish and we adopted her, with my mom saying, "They (Precious and Sally) play so well together. We can't seperate them now!" This month makes six months that we have had her and she still has some of her "issues", but a lot of them have gotten better. She has gotten used to her collar (she never had one before), She knows a few commands (I don't know how because no one has taught her them), she isn't NEARLY as shy as she used to be, she likes her vets now (we finally got her mange cured), she looks me in the eye when I talk to her, she is housebroken, she runs around the house playing with Precious (not in the same room as us, but she's getting better with that)...there's other things I'm sure I'm forgetting just because we're working on so many things right now.

The only things she's having problems with right now is walking on a leash (she just lays on the ground like a bump on a log) and she still barks and growls when people come in the house. As part of her socialization process, I take her to the shelter to meet new people, and she barks and growls at people when they get too close to her there also, so I think she still considers that her territory as well. She won't bark and growl if she knows I'm in the room, but if she can't see me or if I'm not in the room she'll bark and growl...and not just at people, at larger dogs as well.

I knew all the issues Sally had before I adopted her. I felt I had to adopt her because no one else in my community would take the time needed to get her acting like a "normal" or "semi-normal" dog. I know most of the people in my community and there aren't too many dog lovers, much less special needs dog lovers. Luckily I volunteer at a no-kill shelter (the only one in my town) and luckily Sally was there, because she would have been put down probably as soon as she got there at 6 months if not. I have come a long way with her and I still have a ways to go. I have never had to deal with food aggression, but I can tell you that medical problems can worsen behavior problems. Get her checked out. Then see how things go...work with her. It has taken me 6 months to get where I'm at with Sally...it's not going to get better in just two months.

[Clair Taberner]

it's not suprising the dog has food issues! wouldn't you if u never knew when food was coming yr way next. i think u should give her a chance to realise that the food comes regularly. poppy had bad food aggresion when we first got her. we simply stairgated the kitchen off from my son who was 1 at the time so as he didn't come to any harm. i was happy to take the rap if she bit me. this was nearly 8 yrs ago now. at the time i did tell her off harshly to be fair, i didn't know about other training methods and didn't know it had a label for the behaviour. the way i looked at it at the time was you don't do that and did slap her rear. it was a cruel to be kind. ie nip it in the bud in a harsh way but only had to do it the once. btw poppy is a much loved dog who doesn't fear me.a word of caution. i knew that asides from the food issue she was not a "nasty" dog, u must understand the dogs temperment before u tackle anything. u are with yr dog every day and know it best. good luck with it and it's nice to know that someone is prepared to work with it rather than just have the dog put to sleep.

[Joanne Brady]

Casey,

I have a Rott/Lab cross, Amari, who spent the first 7 months of her life locked up in a cage. Water and food were very infrequent. She was afraid of everyone and everything. Amari was rescued and I got her from the rescue organization along with a purebred, deaf Rott. I have raised Rott's in the past and am aware of their quirks and habits. I knew what I was getting with Amari. I figured that a human being made her the way she was and I had to atleast try to show her that a human being could take away or help her manage those fears. Amari was very food aggressive when I got her. If my other dog, Soleil, even sniffed in the area of her bowl, there was growling and baring of teeth. For almost 3 weeks, I took Amari outside to our patio and I fed her by hand, a couple of pieces of kibble at a time, for each and every meal. This slowed down her eating and showed her she could depend on me to give her food and to know that my hand was allowed near and in the food bowl. Now Amari and Soleil eat their meals in the same room with no problems. Right now, I put Amari into a sit, put the food down and have her wait until I release her to go to the food bowl. She will do this for several minutes even as Soleil is eating at another nearby bowl.

With prior experience with behaviour issues, it would be nice if this dog got just the chance at a good life with you. We lose nothing if we try; if we don't try, we may lose a wonderful dog. I understand that ultimately this isn't your decision but thank you for wanting to help this girl.

When I look at Amari now it is amazing to see the beauty and the appreciation in her eyes. I thinks she knows that she has a much better life than the one she started with. We have a lot of behaviour issues to deal with still - she growls when someone comes into the house, goes crazy when she sees other dogs, cats, squirrels, etc. But she now makes eye contact with us, gives us kisses and will throw the upper half of her body across our laps if we are watching tv - she wants and initiates human contact. I believe that I have a good 18 months of work with her, I've already put in over 6 months. Amari's accomplishments are very tiny and often difficult to measure. I have a trainer who is teaching us shaping and agility and as someone from the outside looking in, she see's the project progressing and how far Amari has really come. Sometimes I want things to progress faster than it does, so it is good to have someone who can make me see this and re-focus on the little things.

I hope that you get the opportunity to work with this girl.

Joanne

[Casey Laurie]

Thanks all. I hope we get to take her too. She was at one shelter for two weeks with no problems, was collected by her then owner after investigators found him and pushed the issue..he was just going to leave her there but refused to sign her over. After more investigation he was given the option to avoid felony cruelty charges if he surrendered the dog. One night it was a terrible storm, and if he had not been blasted and threatened with immediate arrest if that dog was found outside during a blizzard..we truly believe she would have frozen to death. They finally got a warrent to sieze her and he still refused to sign her over until the hearing and he finally got the net that he was actually facing serious charges (animal cruelty is no longer a misdemeanor, btw. It's a felony that can carry a prison sentence). Now during her time at our shelter, my husband bonded withg her and walked her almost daily. We even took her for an overnight to see if she would make a good foster for us.

We ended up bringing her back because our son had an athsma attack and we just weren't sure of the cause..plus our apartment is very small and very congested to begin with and she was obviously fixated on my husband. We were concerned that we would not be able to adopt her out if she got too attached. She's a bigger dog than we had thought at first too.
We asked that someone please foster her to get her acclimated to other people, dogs, and indoor living but because she was a law enforcement hold no one wanted to accept liability we guess. Now she's failed temperment testing and well...We'll find out very soon I hope, what the final decision is.

We think she may have some medical issues, but unless we get to foster her we'll never find out. I don't understand why they wouldn't. They gave us Rusty after all...and he DEFINITELY failed temperment testing, lol. HE was surrendered for biting to begin with, and this dog here has never bitten anyone. I've even got half a behavior mod plan worked out oin my head.

I've got my fingers crossed.

[Casey Laurie]

I spoke withg my husband a little while ago. The shelter manager, who has also not seen these behaviors, said that he wants to do one more test with her, and for both he and my husband to be in the room as well. With no guarantees, he said that if my husband can handle the behaviors then we can probably take her home. We think it's part "See, we're not making this up.", and COA (cover our a**). This I agree with. I wish I could be there as well. In fact, I wish they would allow me to perform the test myself. I've seen some of these tests, and they do all sorts of threatening things, like hovering, high pitched voices, petting with sticks...umm..I'm sorry, but if the dog was abused, don't you think it might have a few issues with strange behavior from humans???

For all we know, the person delivering the tests reminds her of her abuser. Have other people tried the tests with her? I have a LOT of questions, and I think that if a dog has a willing foster family with experience with aggressive behaviors that they should do whatever they can to eliminate reasons for failing the test.

I understand they have their policies, but I think they need to take a good look at the policies they have for abuse cases. If DSS removes a child from an abusive home, that child gets therapy does it not? This dog was removed from an abusive environment. She deserves at least a chance to be rehabilitated.

So now I go back to waiting, and chewing off the remainder of my fingernails.

Casey >^_^<

[Susan Bacon]

CASEY:
I've just finished this thread and am biting my nails with you. My heart goes out to you and your husband as you try to bring this baby home where she'll be safe. You are an incredible woman and I hope your news is good!

[Casey Laurie]

They did just the bowl test, and while there was some growling and defensive body language, there was no outright aggression. That fake hand...tell me please how that tells anyone anything anyway? Do they think they are fooling the dog??? :rolleyes: She didn't bite at it, but even if she had...fer cryin' out loud...it doesn't smell like one. It's just this foreign object that smells weird trying to take away her food and maybe hurt her.

Regardless; this was a far cry from how the behaviorist made it sound, and she never offered any description of the behavior, just that it was "Bad; the worst I've ever seen"...kind of like the vet who first examined her, and proclaimed her "Skinny..I've seen skinnier." Yeah..that's gonna tell you a whole lot :rolleyes:
I still want a description of the entire session with the behaviorist. They didn't geta tape of it, which disturbs me greatly.

Anyway, we are waiting to see if they will spay her now, or if they want to wait a couple of weeks to see how she does with us, but we can definitely foster her. :bunny:

I think we even have a crate in her size :D

[Clair Taberner]

congrats casey, i'm so agreeing with yr comments about that fake hand thing!Do they think they are fooling the dog??? :rolleyes: She didn't bite at it, but even if she had...fer cryin' out loud...it doesn't smell like one. It's just this foreign object that smells weird trying to take away her food and maybe hurt her.

[Susan Bacon]

Awesome, awesome news! Keep us posted please!!!!

[Joanne Brady]

Casey that is great news. It sounds like the person who administered the test and declared her the worse case she had ever seen may have had some sort of a "personality" conflict with the dog. Anyway, get that little girl home and show her what a good life is like.

Joanne

[Casey Laurie]

Whew! She was awake half the night, out to pee at 3am and still used the pee pad and had an accident this morning. Paced around the house trying to figure out which way is up I guess. Our other animals, both dogs and one of the cats seem to be adapting well to her, and there is much less animosity toward her than the first time we had her here. Our younger cat Zoe is pretty freaked out. Funny cause she is the last one I would have thoiught would have issues. At one point we were concerned she thought she was a dog herself, lol. Lilly, as we are calling her, seems so far: great with other dogs, great with cats, great with kids..mostly. She gave a little growl to my daughter when she grabbed her collar to get her away from the trash basket. I told her it's probably not a good idea to do that again, and told her to correct her verbally with "Eh-eh!" (which she responds well to) first, then praise her, give her a command she understands, and treat her for that....and keep her trash basket empty, lol. We put up a baby gate to keep her in the front room for now, but as soon as Zoe calms down and Jen gets her room tidy I want to start training her to sleep in there.

I'm hoping we start seeing a steady trickle of behaviors sooner than later so we can get her retrained and adoptable asap. This is such a great dog.

BTW: After two months of playing "Name That Breed", we think we have settled on the most logical combo: Dachshund/GSD

I'll post some pics later on if that's ok :)

[Susan Bacon]

Dachshund/German Shepherd?? What a great combination! Do please post some pictures. Casey, your descriptions of Lilly and her first night are wonderful. It sounds like with any new addition, there's some transition stress for her--and the rest of your entire family. Hang in there! Bless you--You're doing great work!!

[Casey Laurie]

Transition stress? Don't I know it! I can't imagine her being any more difficult than Rusty, and if she is then at least I am better equipped to deal with it this time around. We are already having some big time seperation anxiety issues with her and my husband. I have told him a few times that he is just going to have to completely ignore her most of the time until she gets over her fixation on him, and he is not to do any primary care if at all possible. Hopefully he'll be able to resist those big brown eyes, lol.

[Susan Bacon]

Ha! You've got me laughing! Listen, as hard as it must be--and it MUST be--you've got a big heart and a great sense of humor to get you through all this. Transition stress is my own personal diagnosis for welcoming our own second puppy into the house within six months. As you know, a second (or in your case 3rd, 4th, or ????) animal doesn't just double the load--stress and otherwise--it's more like a quadruple!

Hey, at least your husband can be used as a secret weapon when she needs it. Keep the faith Casey!! :D

[Casey Laurie]

http://www.purr3d.com/Lilly/Lilly_stance.jpg

Dachsie-toed!

http://www.purr3d.com/Lilly/Lilly_form01.jpg

I know this one is cut off at the nose, but it really shows the dachsie in her so well.

[Casey Laurie]

http://www.purr3d.com/Lilly/Lilly_cutie.jpg

What a cutie eh?

If anyone from Dachshund Rescue is around and wants to take her we can make arrangements as soon as we get a good view of her behavior issues.

[Jody Hayes]

She is gorgeous! What a cutie...Good Luck to you and your family with all the training:)

[Joanne Brady]

What a sweetie!!! An interesting combination of GSD and Doxie. We have our fingers crossed for you. Keep us informed about how things are going.

Joanne

[Renee]

Now that is one cute dog....

[Casey Laurie]

Well, I saw this afternoon a behavior that, if similar in any wayt to what the behaviorist saw, I can understand their position better. I still think she deserves a chance, but I understand why they thought it best to PTS at the time.

I took her for a walk to Petco to exchange her Halti..the one we bought yesterday was too big. The walk was through a high traffic area, so she was stressed out to begin with when we got there, then all the smells, and then a staff member leaning over her to pet her in a small space. Bad, bad, bad. I should have known better. She lunged. The leash stopped her, so I don't know if she would have actually followed through with a bite. I don't ever want to find out either.

I think we stick to the yard and maybe ten minute walks during quiet times until NILIF starts to sink in and she learns some calming signals.

[Amber]

She is SO cute, Casey!

[Casey Laurie]

She is! Sucha love too. Very emotionally needy though. We are seeing lots of seperation anxiety from her regarding my husband. He's the one that saved her, he's the one that took her for walks nearly every day. He's the one that she feels safe with. She does go through the pecking order of whom she follows too. It's so funny. If my hubby is home she is on him like glue. Won't take her eyes off him either. If he's gone, she whines and cries a bit, a little howl once in a while but nothing too loud. The worst of it is in the morning when he leaves. She's pacing around and whining right now. Then it's me she follows around. If neither of us are there, she follows our 13 yo daughter, and if she can't get to her she sticks around the same area as our 10 yo son, but isn't as clingy with him. We have her confined to the front room, which is also our bedroom, for most of the time. My daughter was in her room, so Lilly could not get there, and I went to take a nap so Lilly camped herself out under our son's desk. It was too cute.

Methinks she needs something to take her mind off things. I think we'll go do some training.

[Casey Laurie]

This is all getting so involved. I'm posting our progress on my training journal if anyone is interested:

Two Shiny Dogs (http://www.livejournal.com/users/two_shiny_dogs/) :dogrun: