Dog Bite!

[Joanne Zullo]

:confused: I am totaly at a loss. My two year old long haired Dachshund, Charlie, bit my husband on the face last night. Bad, I though we might have to go for stitches but were finally able to stop the bleeding. He has been with us since adopted at about 3 months old. He has never, never even raised his lips to anyone. He has always been my sweet boy. I trusted him to play with all the neigborhood kids and dogs. Everybody love nice, sweet, mellow Charlie. We adopted a puppy about 2 months ago, a Beagle/Dachshund mix named Zoe. We have had her about 2 months now. Charlie's first reaction to Zoe was very jeolous and controlling. He did not want anything to do with her or for her to touch any of his toys. Charlie was so upset by Zoe that we had to put him on a medication used for ulcers for the first two weeeks or so that we had her. We knew that the relationship would take time and that it would improve as Zoe got older. We try to do all the things we are supposed to to show Charlie that his is still dominent. Last night we were getting ready for bed. Charlie and Zoe were doing some minor ruff and tumble on my bed. They both stopped and were laying side by side slightly under the covers when my husband deceided to get in the game. I tell him all the time not to growl at the dogs, but he doesn't listen. He put is face down on Zoe's belly and starting making like raspberries with a growling noise. Zoe seemed to like it. This only went on for a few seconds when Charlie growled. This dog never growls, we have never seen any type of agression from him. Kenny looked up to face Charlie and Charlie basically lunged at him. Grabbed him right on the cheek, top teeth by the nose and bottom teeth by his mouth. My husband stood there in shock for a monment and starting to yell and walk off to our bedroom bath. I walked over to Charlie to put in a crate until the whole thing was sorted out and there where two big urine stains on the bed cover. One from Charlie and one from Zoe. I am so upset and confused. Can ever trust this dog again. My whole relationship with him has just been shattered. We even breifly discussed giving Zoe away if this is how Charlie was going to be around her. What should I do? :help2:

[Renee]

Joanne-

I understand that you are very upset...your Dachshund, Charlie, showed no bite inhibition and you husband was bitten on the face....but there are many things to consider.

You stated:
"Charlie was so upset by Zoe that we had to put him on a medication used for ulcers for the first two weeeks or so that we had her."

Charlie is already under a lot of stress in your home with the arrival of Zoe.

You stated:
"I tell him all the time not to growl at the dogs, but he doesn't listen. He put is face down on Zoe's belly and starting making like raspberries with a growling noise."

This statement is very disturbing to me. Your husband is beyond inappropriate in the way he interacted. He was being directly threatening to Zoe and Charlie (who is an already stressed out dog) and your husband put Charlie into a position where Charlie thought he had to defend himself or possibly Zoe (does your husband growl at both dogs or just Zoe?). Unfortunately, it often takes a terrible incident like this for people to realize the importance of how they choose to interact with their dogs. This is also why so many children are bitten on the face......parents need to both supervise and teach their children how to properly interact with dogs (which it seems like you tried to do with your husband, to no avail).

You stated:
" This dog never growls, we have never seen any type of agression from him."

I think this is a very promising sign.....just the fact that Charlie has never shown this type of behavior before. Any dog is capabile of biting if pushed to do so...and your husband pushed Charlie to that limit.

You may want to consider hiring a good +R trainer or behavior consultant to help you and your husband work through any of the problems or issues you feel need to be personally addressed. There could be many more issues at work here.....possibly more than we can talk about over the internet.

I think one of biggest issues here is to teach your husband how to appropriately act around dogs...your home life will be much safer and less stressful if this can be accomplished.

Here is Jen Shyrock's website (http://www.familypaws.com/dogsandstorks/) There are many links and articles about dog bite prevention and how we can interact with our dogs in a non-threatening manner.

You also stated that you make sure that Charlie knows that he is still the "dominant dog". Could you elaborate on that...

I would also like Renee Premaza to comment on this situation because she deals with many aggression cases in her private practice...

Hang in there...

[Renee Premaza]

Hello!

Wow! Renee, you're response here is RIGHT ON!! I was horribly shocked the first time I saw someone blowing on a dog's belly. It was a teenage girl who was doing this to her aggressive Visla, who made a habit of biting HER! Some people really can't understand the concept that our dogs are not human children or babies. They're ANIMALS and animals have instincts that are much different than humans. Putting our mouths on a dog's belly is completely inappropriate behavior by anyone.

Obviously Charlie didn't understand the husband's behavior from beginning to end. He may have felt that he was doing something aggressively to Zoe. Renee points out that Charlie is already a very stressed and anxious dog, so his reaction was not terribly surprising. True, he lacks bite inhibition. I would wonder how long he spent with his litter, and also if teaching him bite inhibition was ever addressed when he was a puppy who first came to live with you. All dogs are capable of biting. Aggression is normal in the canine world -- but it's not accepted in the human world.

You also stated that Charlie never growled before. Charlie was able to give a clear warning to your husband, who should have taken that warning and heeded it. He may have prevented that bite had he stopped doing what he was doing when he heard that growl. Growling is a dog's warning signal. Never punish it.

I would hope that you would seek the help of a professional behaviorist or trainer who has a lot of experience in working with aggression. I believe you need one-on-one help. You can check out these links to find professionals who use positive methods:

www.iadbc.net
http://animalbehaviorcounse lors.org/index.shtml
http://www.acabn.com/caninedirectory.html

The one statement you made that disturbed me is when you said you're supporting Charlie's role as "the dominant dog." Charlie is anything but dominant! He is fearful, stressed, totally unconfident in both himself and his humans, and his behaviors are more like those of a bully. So, if you're supporting those behaviors, you're telling him you LIKE the inappropriate behaviors he's choosing with Zoe.

Please get some professional help ASAP. Also, keep reading posts in this forum because many of them will help you too.

Renee -- YOU ROCK!

Joanne-

I understand that you are very upset...your Dachshund, Charlie, showed no bite inhibition and you husband was bitten on the face....but there are many things to consider.

You stated:
"Charlie was so upset by Zoe that we had to put him on a medication used for ulcers for the first two weeeks or so that we had her."

Charlie is already under a lot of stress in your home with the arrival of Zoe.

You stated:
"I tell him all the time not to growl at the dogs, but he doesn't listen. He put is face down on Zoe's belly and starting making like raspberries with a growling noise."

This statement is very disturbing to me. Your husband is beyond inappropriate in the way he interacted. He was being directly threatening to Zoe and Charlie (who is an already stressed out dog) and your husband put Charlie into a position where Charlie thought he had to defend himself or possibly Zoe (does your husband growl at both dogs or just Zoe?). Unfortunately, it often takes a terrible incident like this for people to realize the importance of how they choose to interact with their dogs. This is also why so many children are bitten on the face......parents need to both supervise and teach their children how to properly interact with dogs (which it seems like you tried to do with your husband, to no avail).

You stated:
" This dog never growls, we have never seen any type of agression from him."

I think this is a very promising sign.....just the fact that Charlie has never shown this type of behavior before. Any dog is capabile of biting if pushed to do so...and your husband pushed Charlie to that limit.

You may want to consider hiring a good +R trainer or behavior consultant to help you and your husband work through any of the problems or issues you feel need to be personally addressed. There could be many more issues at work here.....possibly more than we can talk about over the internet.

I think one of biggest issues here is to teach your husband how to appropriately act around dogs...your home life will be much safer and less stressful if this can be accomplished.

Here is Jen Shyrock's website (http://www.familypaws.com/dogsandstorks/) There are many links and articles about dog bite prevention and how we can interact with our dogs in a non-threatening manner.

You also stated that you make sure that Charlie knows that he is still the "dominant dog". Could you elaborate on that...

I would also like Renee Premaza to comment on this situation because she deals with many aggression cases in her private practice...

Hang in there...

[Monique Shimm]

As a side comment (no advice here), it is weird but the only sound that my dog absolutely hates is the raspberry sound. I once put my lips together and made that sort of sound - my dog happened to be lying down and I made it right behind her. (I did it to get her to get off the ground and play with me). She shot off out of the room as if I had whipped her. I tried it again maybe a year later (I learn slowly), and she shot off again. There is something really alien about that sound to dogs.

Question to the advisors: is it possible to train your dog using different methods than your spouse? I know in this case, certain things are off-limits for both. But is it possible that one uses the positive method using clicker training and the other uses leash corrections? Can a fearful dog still make progress? I have a certain interest in this answer pertaining to my other thread. Thank you!

[Renee]

Monique:

Quote:
"I know in this case, certain things are off-limits for both. But is it possible that one uses the positive method using clicker training and the other uses leash corrections? Can a fearful dog still make progress? I have a certain interest in this answer pertaining to my other thread. Thank you!"

-You have a dog that is fearful of other dogs, is starting to be fearful of certain people and traffic. Your dog is becoming dog-aggressive and leash aggressive....if your dog is also starting to fear people, you could be headed down a road to having a dog that is people-aggressive. Leash corrections, prong collars, shock collars, and traditional training are all at the core your dog's problems. Aversive stimuli cause fear and aggression responses (dogs are fight-flight animals).

-So, if you are using click and treat methods (along with systematic desentization/counterconditioning techniques) and your significant other is using leash corrections and other aversive tactics (training on avoidance behaviors), then I'm afraid your significant other is setting your dog up to fail. You and your husband really need to be on the same page....it will be very difficult to make progress if aversives are still being used on this dog. Maybe you and your husband need to have a honest discussion about why your dog has aggression problems and how you are going to tackle this problem together.

It is unfortunate that you had some bad trainers who showed you to use all these aversive dog training methods. I'm glad you came dog DD/DB and have started in a new direction. Everyone in your houshold just needs to be on the same page....I really hope you hire a skilled +R trainer. I think it can make a huge impact on your dog's well being.

Please keep us updated on your situation. Good luck,

[Joanne Zullo]

O.K. I have a better understanding of why this happened. I have question for Renee Premaza - I interested in how you came to this conclusion.

"The one statement you made that disturbed me is when you said you're supporting Charlie's role as "the dominant dog." Charlie is anything but dominant! He is fearful, stressed, totally unconfident in both himself and his humans, and his behaviors are more like those of a bully. So, if you're supporting those behaviors, you're telling him you LIKE the inappropriate behaviors he's choosing with Zoe."

I am curious because I don't agree. I don't believe that I gave you enough information on Charlies long term behavior toward Zoe to make this kind of statement. While I agree my husband made a mistake, he did stop as soon as Charlie growled. He had stopped and was in the process of standing up when Charlie bite him. That is why I came here. To understand why this behavior was mistake, the effect his mistake had on Charlie and why. I came here to try and learn and understand the reasons that my dog reacted this way so that I can teach both myself and my husband and ensure that this never happens again. I understand what both of you are saying. Of course every dog is capable of biting. I will still shocked by the intensity of Charlies reaction. Growling is one thing, but the severity of the bite was a total surprise at the time. We are trying to reforce Charlies dominance in the house over Zoe by greating him first, petting him first, feeding him first, letting him lead her on walks.

[Renee]

When people "support" one dog over another, it often creates tension (and bullies) in multidog households. Please read the article about the NILIF (nothing in life is free)
.http://www.doggiebagonline. com/articles/article.php?articlei d=15

Many times people make the mistake of thinking a dog is "dominant", when just as Renee P pointed out, it's usually insecurity and/or a lack of confidence issue. If you want to understand more about this, Patricia McConnell's book, The Other End Of The Leash has a whole chapter about the Myths of Dominance.

Please read my post that explaines why the "dominance paradigm" can be harmful to our dogs...
http://www.doggiebagonline. com/forum/showthread.php?t=7

Hopefully Renee P can get back to you soon....

[Renee Premaza]

Hi again, Joanne!

You're to be commended for coming to this website to learn. Most people would not be so committed to their dogs especially after an incident such as this.

Charlie is not a dominant dog. A truly "dominant dog" is very self-confident and independent. A dominant dog within a pack of dogs is generally aloof and does not solicit the attention of other pack members. It's the other pack members that ask this dog's permission to approach for attention. A dominant dog can rule a pack without ever or certainly rarely needing to show aggression. Even giving a pack member a certain look can relay an important message without resorting to biting, snarling, growling, etc. People who own "dominant dogs" can attest to what a challenge they present because they ARE independent dogs. Dominant dogs are great for doing activities, like hunting, or other sports activities where the dog doesn't necessarily have to work as a team.

Charlie is a very stressed and anxious pup. He absolutely lacks self-confidence, but he behaves in such a way that resembles a dog who thinks he must make all the important decisions about his well-being by himself. That is where YOUR leadership skills are much needed so that Charlie can then relax and give this responsibility up to YOU and your husband. Once he gains confidence in YOUR leadership skills, you will notice that he will calm down much more easily and he'll be less reactive. I do believe that this will take time and consistent training. Also, while training is critically important, management is also a key factor. Manage Charlie's environment so that nothing triggers him to feel defensive, reactive or overly stressed. There are 4 ingredients that cause aggression. They are: STRESS, ANXIETY, FEAR AND ANGER. Some dogs only need one of these emotions to feel the need to bite. It all depends on that particular dog's bite threshold. When Charlie bit your husband, his bite threshold was lowered to the absolute bottom. Now it's important to raise his bite threshold as high as possible so he can learn to tolerate stress much better than he does now.

You said, "While I agree my husband made a mistake, he did stop as soon as Charlie growled. He had stopped and was in the process of standing up when Charlie bite him."

It's difficult to know exactly what a dog is thinking because we can't read their minds. I know that I have seen dogs become much more reactive when people go to leave a room or a house than when that person entered the house. I think it's the fear of an unknown. Perhaps Charlie, who was already responding from a fight/flight response reacted toward your husband when he stood up, because he feared that your husband was going to punish him? Maybe when your husband stood up, he appeared so much taller than Charlie and that made Charlie feel threatened?

Keep in mind that when Charlie bit your husband, he did not see his behavior as being wrong, immoral or inappropriate. Charlie, being a dog, was behaving out of instinct. His particular temperament was formed as a result of genetic influences, past learning experiences, and his own unique traits developed over time. Many dogs can bite someone, and then within minutes are licking that person or bringing their toys over to the victim. It's a way of communicating.

I don't know how much reading you've done, but one book that could explain this to you is THE CULTURE CLASH, by Jean Donaldson. You can buy this book online at www.dogwise.com

I hope I've given you a clearer picture of Charlie's behavior and the various possibilities of why he did what he did. I applaud you for your thirst for answers. I just wish there were some easy ones to give you.

Renee Premaza
Advisor
Dog Obedience Trainer
www.jerseydogtrainer .com


O.K. I have a better understanding of why this happened. I have question for Renee Premaza - I interested in how you came to this conclusion.

"The one statement you made that disturbed me is when you said you're supporting Charlie's role as "the dominant dog." Charlie is anything but dominant! He is fearful, stressed, totally unconfident in both himself and his humans, and his behaviors are more like those of a bully. So, if you're supporting those behaviors, you're telling him you LIKE the inappropriate behaviors he's choosing with Zoe."

I am curious because I don't agree. I don't believe that I gave you enough information on Charlies long term behavior toward Zoe to make this kind of statement. While I agree my husband made a mistake, he did stop as soon as Charlie growled. He had stopped and was in the process of standing up when Charlie bite him. That is why I came here. To understand why this behavior was mistake, the effect his mistake had on Charlie and why. I came here to try and learn and understand the reasons that my dog reacted this way so that I can teach both myself and my husband and ensure that this never happens again. I understand what both of you are saying. Of course every dog is capable of biting. I will still shocked by the intensity of Charlies reaction. Growling is one thing, but the severity of the bite was a total surprise at the time. We are trying to reforce Charlies dominance in the house over Zoe by greating him first, petting him first, feeding him first, letting him lead her on walks.