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View Full Version : Young Golden female vs. 2 year Lhasa male


AnneMarie Wright
04-30-2005, 08:38 AM
First, this great site has already taught me a lot! Thanks to all who have shared info. Now on to my my very disheartening situation:

My mother (in our in-law apt.) and my family each adopted a male lhasa apso puppy 2 years ago. My mom's dog "Sammy" is the alpha, with my "Joey" being the little brother and playmate. They have occasional fights, but nothing we were ever concerned about. They have been great little dogs. We lost our golden several years ago and were finally ready to have another one in our lives, so we got a female puppy 4 months ago. She (Phoebe) has bonded very well with my seven y.o. daughter and has played nicely with the two little dogs. Sammy has pinned her down a few times and has shown dominence over her, which we allowed.

BUT over the last month, Phoebe and Joey have been increasingly aggressive to each other. They will be standing near each other and the next thing Phoebe has him by the neck thrashing him from side to side. It is difficult to tell who starts it, but Joey gets the brunt of it. Once Phoebe is pulled away from him and held back, he goes after her. He of course is no match (15 lbs. vs. 70 lbs.) This quickly increased in frequency to 3-4 times weekly, all happening inside with people around. Last Friday it happened when they were outside, we were not able to break it up before it was over, and Joey was left very sore & limping for several days. (Phoebe is not breaking skin or bones thankfully). We have kept them apart since this incident, which is not easy, and I've been working the NILIF concepts.

Last night I held Joey on my lap and my hausband let Phoebe in the room to see how they would respond after being apart for a week. Phoebe came over to him, they sniffed for a few, then an attack attempt. Again, not sure who starts it... it seems instantaneous to me. But it is viscous and scary. :sad:

What is interesting based on what I've been reading is that male-female fights are not common. Does any body have any ideas? I'd appreciate any comments or questions. Thank you.

Amber
04-30-2005, 08:32 PM
It sounds like, to me and I'm not an expert mind you, that Joey and Phoebe are fighting for "next in line" in the hierarchy. You said Sammy has already established himself as Alpha...with two more dogs in the household, they are trying to figure out who is going to be the ultimate omega (the lowest in the ranks). Am I making sense? lol...sometimes my wording can be a little off.

Another thing, and maybe someone else can come on here and help you out a little better with this, but you can stop the fights before they happen if you pay attention to their body language...pinned back ears, tails between the legs, etc. With some dogs I have even felt the tension in the air before they started fighting.

I hope I have helped at least a little in your search for answers!

Jo Russell
04-30-2005, 10:54 PM
Last night I held Joey on my lap and my hausband let Phoebe in the room to see how they would respond after being apart for a week. Phoebe came over to him, they sniffed for a few, then an attack attempt. Again, not sure who starts it... it seems instantaneous to me. But it is viscous and scary. :sad:

Also not an expert, but I believe that the recommended way to start reintroductions involves simply walking one dog into and then almost straight out of the room - madly treating or praising each dog the whole time they were in each others presence. Or to have the dogs both on lead, sat on opposite sides of the room, again madly treating and/or praising (by upbeat and most essentially calm humans), so that while the dogs will be aware, peripherally at least, of each other's presence, they will be ideally focussed on their respective humans. This should just be for a really short period of time, repeat the next day. What you're aiming to do is build up tolerance, very, very, slowly, increasing the time, by minutes or even seconds, that they spend together.

It's in this way that the dogs will hopefully come to accept the other again, because good things happen (treats and praise) when the other is around. It was too much, too fast for Pheobe to have been able to come right up to Joey.


What is interesting based on what I've been reading is that male-female fights are not common. Does any body have any ideas? I'd appreciate any comments or questions. Thank you.

Yes, I chose a female when adopting a second dog, seeing as I already had a male. I haven't had any prob's to deal with so far; nearly four months in to two dog ownership, but I took it really slowly and carefully and still am. Colour me overcautious, but I've never allowed them to play too vigorously together. I didn't get a second dog as a companion for the first dog. They are both my companions, though they do seem relaxed and happy with each other too.

It was finding DoggieDoor - something of a predecessor to this site, which met it's demise in all almighty crash a few months ago - and reading all about newer ways of thinking about and relating to dogs, and how dogs relate to each other that gave me the confidence to go ahead and get No.2.

I think that if you back your two off from each other again for now and go more slowly with the reintroducing, in conjunction with NILIF for all dogs which should help to put you and other human members of the pack firmly in the position of benevolent leader(s), that's your best shot at working things out. My 2cents.

Amber
05-01-2005, 09:49 PM
One thought...Are all dogs spayed/neutered? This may help with the aggression as well.

AnneMarie Wright
05-02-2005, 07:09 PM
Thanks for everyone's responses.

Sammy & Joey are neutered, and my plan was to have Phoebe spayed by now. But with what is going on, its been put off. (I do NEED to make that appointment, though. lol)

Right now we're keeping them apart. After some cooling off in another week or so I'll start the re-introduction process again, but the "right way". I've also gotten the numbers for some local pet behaviorists I may invite over. That seems like "Nanny 911" to me, but we all need to just get along!

Any other ideas, I'd love to hear.

Sheryl
05-02-2005, 08:33 PM
I think the idea of having a behaviourist (or two!) come over is a great idea, not an over reaction. The best $50 I have spent in a really long time is the consult with the behaviour specialist. (I just wish I lived in a big city where I could have her come over and see things, rather than me telling her.) As soon as I got over my wish to have everything 'all better' right away, and actually started to DO what was recommended, things began to get better almost right away. It is thanks to this forum that I was steered in this direction and was able to find someone to consult with.

Kevin English
05-03-2005, 08:27 AM
Please, please, please call and work with a behaviorist. It sounds like the little dog, while not suffering fatal injuries has suffered some fairly severe ones. If you have not had him checked by a vet since the fight that made him sore and limp, PLEASE do. There can be some muscle damage that is suffered even is skin is not broken.

I know that it is difficult (as I have had to do it myself before), but keep the dogs seperate until you talk with the behaviorist. It can be a bit pricey...but these folks are pros at working with animals, they know how they tick and why they do things. Your instincts to call one are right on...please do so!

Good Luck,
Kevin