Starting to regress

[Monique Shimm]

Hi there,

My 2 1/2 year old Franny (shep mix) is starting to regress to her old habits. Problems started at about age 2 when she started to growl at certain dogs. I've already posted about that problem on the defensive dog forum.

However, other behaviors which used to be so solid are now not so solid. She used to be able to hold a stay for an hour if I wished, with all sorts of distractions. Now, I am finding her break her stay if a dog walks by (say, 50 feet away and it's a doggie friend of hers).

She is starting to be more fearful of people reaching down and touching her.

She is starting to show fear of traffic. Never used to bother her.

She pulls on her leash to get to certain dogs or people. Never used to do that.

The other day, she crossed the barrier from snapping to making a connection. A puppy approached my husband and Franny, Franny snapped at the puppy and my husband said that she did touch the dog (no wound or punchure or saliva, and the puppy came back for more... so luckily not too serious... but I was horrified.)

She was being dog sat for less than a week. When I came back, she is now in the habit of jumping up on people to greet them (only the one's she really knows.) I am having a heck of a time breaking her of this new habit. It's been over three months.

She used to follow the sit and down command perfectly. Now, when I ask her to sit and then stay, she immediately lies down. When I recently went to a basic class (to get her assessed for an advanced class), she would not maintain her sit. As soon as she'd lie down, I tell her to sit again. She sits and then immediately lies down again. I tried catching her in the act and interupt her with a "ah, ah, ah...". She just looked at me and continued to lie down. Then I tried to physically hold her leash so that she couldn't lie down, she just put pressure on the leash and lie down anyways.

She no longer sits in the TV room with us. She prefers to sleep upstairs in the evening.

We implemented NILIF 4 of 5 months ago due to her growling issues.

What could be wrong? She has recently been to the vet and got a clean bill of health. Nothing has changed in our schedule, either. She still gets an hour in am and an hour in pm of exercise (lucky dog).

It's like we are starting all over again. It seems that I have a leadership problem. My husband reports the same problems as me.

The only good news is that I started working on getting her on leash healing to be better and after many, many weeks, she is really good - except as I mention, when she really wants to see a dog that she knows.

[Renee]

Hi Monique-

Quote:
"However, other behaviors which used to be so solid are now not so solid. She used to be able to hold a stay for an hour if I wished, with all sorts of distractions. Now, I am finding her break her stay if a dog walks by (say, 50 feet away and it's a doggie friend of hers).

She is starting to be more fearful of people reaching down and touching her.

She is starting to show fear of traffic. Never used to bother her.

She pulls on her leash to get to certain dogs or people. Never used to do that."


-I'm wondering here if your dog's fears are holding her back. It seems like you have perfectly identified all the problems, so now you know what you have to work on. I think you and your dog are at a major crossroads here... slightly fearful dogs can easily become aggressive/reactive dogs. The rule in dog behavior is the fear generalizes easily and training behaviors does not.

-One of the things that I think would really help you in this sitation would be to teach your dog a "watch". (I can elaborate on how to teach this if you need me to). If your dog is watching you, then she is not pulling on her leash to get to dogs or people. A solid watch can change your life......

Quote:
"however, other behaviors which used to be so solid are now not so solid."

-You also have to remember that your dog is still pretty young. Have you been practicing all the behaviors that are solid. What kind of reinforcement schedule are you on. What have you been doing to "proof" (I really don't like this word, but I'll use it anyway - nothing is ever really proofed) those behaviors.

Quote:
" Now, I am finding her break her stay if a dog walks by (say, 50 feet away and it's a doggie friend of hers)."

-After you have sufficiently practiced "watch" in the house, and worked on it for a while, then this is the perfect time to use it. Stand 51 feet away from the distraction, use your sit/stay and watch commands and reward heavily. Just like stay, teach watch with a release word.

Quote:
"When I recently went to a basic class (to get her assessed for an advanced class), she would not maintain her sit. As soon as she'd lie down, I tell her to sit again. She sits and then immediately lies down again. I tried catching her in the act and interupt her with a "ah, ah, ah...". She just looked at me and continued to lie down. Then I tried to physically hold her leash so that she couldn't lie down, she just put pressure on the leash and lie down anyways."

-I have two thoughts about this...1. its medical or 2. she is starting to get anxious around other dogs and obedience class is a point of stress for her.

Quote:
"She was being dog sat for less than a week. When I came back, she is now in the habit of jumping up on people to greet them (only the one's she really knows.) I am having a heck of a time breaking her of this new habit. It's been over three months."

-I'm not sure what happened here...I'm guessing that she jumps on people because they reinforce it (knowingly or unknowingly). That is all it really takes to keep a behavior alive. What methods are you using to teach her not to jump (again).

Let me know what you think...

[Renee]

Also-

What kind of training methods does your class use?

[Monique Shimm]

Thank you for all of that. Yes, I think you are right about her being a fearful dog. It came as quite a surprise since she has been socialized since we got her at 14 weeks - socialized with dogs and people. But looking back, I can remember her hiding under my coat at the park if things got tough. I was given the wrong advice that I should just let them sort it out. So perhaps this intense fear period was just waiting to happen - things just got too tough. I originally came to the doggiedoor forum because she started to act aggressive towards submissive dogs. I'll get to that in a moment.

When you say "watch" command... is that the same as "look." I have been teaching her that, and am getting more success with it. I try to click and treat her when she looks me in the eyes. The other day, I tried using it when we pass other people with their dogs and Franny didn't seem to concern with them -baby steps : )... it seemed to work. But we often go to dog parks as well. Today, I noticed that Franny was a bit concerned about four strange dogs approaching us off leash (Franny was also off leash). They were very casual about it - not approaching us directly. So I just started giving her treats. She acted like she had never eaten so wonderful treats before. So I can see the merit of this approach - she seemed to need the distraction. I didn't use a command, I just treated her when she looked at me. However, when two of the dogs approached for a handout, Franny gave them a growl and pulled up her lip. So I had to just put them away. What can I do in these situations? I would like to ease her tension but I create more. When she has done this in the past, I just ignore her and give the other dogs treats (but I knew those dogs). I didn't have the same agreement with these dog owners.

So back to the aggression issue. So I had stopped going to this certain park that was given Franny stress where she would growl at dogs that bumped into her or where she would approach a submissive dog and growl (this advice was given at doggiedoor - it really worked after a couple weeks of doing this). However, just the other day when I was lazy and went back to this park and there were lots of dogs around (ug! shouldn't have done this), she approached this really playful puppy, gave it a growl, it rolled over, and she stood over it, wagged her tail in a loose way, but was also having her lip curled up. I called her to me and she ignored me. This was new. I used to be able to distract her. Is this also fear? That she feels she has to overcorrect a puppy - one that she never met before? Or is this a different problem. I had to go over and pull on her collar. Normally, I would snap on a leash but I didn't have time, the situation seemed to be intensifying too quickly.

She has always been the type of dog to be grandious in her responses to dogs... she would do the whole submissive thing with certain dogs but then do the dominance thing with puppies over 3 mo.

Sorry for being so long winded.

PS Training methods have been changing. I have done the traditional type training with puppy training at PetSmart, then basic at a training club. She has also had some agility. I need to pass the GCC Test so that she can continue her therapy work.

Any ideas?

[Renee]

Monique-

Quote:
"When you say "watch" command... is that the same as "look." "

-yes it is....

Quote:
"PS Training methods have been changing. I have done the traditional type training with puppy training at PetSmart, then basic at a training club."

-What kind of collars did they have you use? Did they have you use leash corrections? What happened when your dog wanted to approach another dog or when Fanny was simply inattentive?

-The traditional training could tie into why your dog doesn't want to sit. How did you originally teach sit? Have you tried starting over with a lure/reward methodology and offered reinforcements for sitting? Or do you think the presence of other dogs in obedience class is causing Franny to shut down?

Quote:
"Today, I noticed that Franny was a bit concerned about four strange dogs approaching us off leash (Franny was also off leash). They were very casual about it - not approaching us directly."

-I know that the dog park can be a great place to exercise your dog (I usually spend 6-10 hours/week at the dog park), but do you think that Franny is starting to feel uncomfortable there also. You really have to take a good hard look at Franny's comfort level. It quite possibly could be too much for her at this point. I know you are trying to help her, but taking her to the dog park could be making the situation worse.

Quote:
"So I just started giving her treats. She acted like she had never eaten so wonderful treats before. So I can see the merit of this approach - she seemed to need the distraction. I didn't use a command, I just treated her when she looked at me. However, when two of the dogs approached for a handout, Franny gave them a growl and pulled up her lip. So I had to just put them away. What can I do in these situations?"

-You have to be careful about pulling out treats in the dog park. Even the most non-aggressive, mello, laid-back dog can get aggressive over food - especially in a dog park setting. Working with Franny in this particular situation is impossible because you can't control the environment (other dogs) which is imperative to working on this problem. What you can do is figure out Franny's comfort distance away from other dogs. Let's say Franny is absolutely comfortable 51 feet away from another dog, but 50 feet away makes her uncomfortable. You can then use your look/click and treat method at 50.5 feet (subthreshold zone). You can do this while Franny is on a leash outside of the dog park This way dogs will not be approching her (which makes her uncomfortable). Absolute control of the enviroment and the distance away from the other dogs is the key to making this work...and is the most challenging part of working on this problem.

Quote:
"wagged her tail in a loose way, but was also having her lip curled up"

- Here is an example of when tail wagging does not equate to the dog being happy and why we have to look at all the signals to see what the dog is communicating. Franny was again stressed out in the dog park setting....

Monique, you might want to consider hiring a good +R trainer who uses systematic desentization and counter conditioning techniques. Else if you really want to work on this youself, there are two great books by Dr. Patricia McConnell that can really help you out....

The Cautious Canine and Feisty Fido (by Patricia McConnell, PhD) are both excellent books and are really fast reads (~30-50pgs).

http://www.dogsbestfriendtr aining.com/books-retail.php

[Monique Shimm]

Ah, you are totally right about lack of control at the dog parks. And these are not even official dog parks, so there are no fences. I will have find somewhere else.

I just finished "The Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson and wished that I had heard about this positive training thing earlier. So to answer you question, yah, we used choke collars and prong collars. I went back to the buckle collar because I needed to control Franny without force for her hospital visits for her therapy work. After coming to Doggiedoor, I instituted a no leash correction policy while doing more heal training. I noticed that she no longer yawned and stretched etc. etc. (all those calming signals) when I approached her or when I asked her to do something.

I am currently reading The Other End of the Leash by McConnell, but I will drop that now in favor of the other books you recommend by her.

I keep cheating and going to the dogpark because it is so hard to exercise this girl. She is basically 68 pounds of solid muscle. And I cannot really let her off the leash anymore because of all the deer in our area. Unless I go back to using the shock collar. Yes, I know. Our last trainer recommended that when she reached 11 months and nothing was working with her long distance recall. I've already been told about what a horrible contraption a shock collar is.

So my husband and I have created our own problems but I am so stuck with how to exercise her. I tried agility but she is not food oriented.

I do have a really good trainer here. She is not a behaviorist - although I think I pay the fee of one $80/hour. I've only used her once but she reiterated what you guys said about not going to the dogpark anymore... I think she will be offering group classes soon.

Thank you so much for your help. With respect to the not sitting - it's not that she didn't know what "sit" was, but that she didn't feel like holding the sit. Maybe it was just the time of the day. She usually is fast asleep at home when this training class was being held. I just thought that she should hold the sit because I asked her to. When Franny shuts down, she usually barks at me and then tries the rotation of sit, down, stand until she thinks I'll shut up and give her the treat : )

Gosh, I can go on, can't I. Sorry about that.

[Melissa Brunoehler]

After coming to Doggiedoor, I instituted a no leash correction policy while doing more heal training. I noticed that she no longer yawned and stretched etc. etc. (all those calming signals) when I approached her or when I asked her to do something.

Hi Monique~

I see that you've gotten awesome advice from Renee B! I just wanted to comment on how great it is that you stopped leash corrections & that you noticed the positive changes! Good for you, keep up the good work!
I'm sure Renee will post soon.

[Renee]

Quote:
"I went back to the buckle collar because I needed to control Franny without force for her hospital visits for her therapy work."

-Does Franny still do therapy work? If so, how is she doing? In your original post you stated that she is starting to fear people reaching down and touching her. Again, you might want to consider putting therapy work on ice for the time being. I think this situation is a dog bite waiting to happen....Really try to stay out of the dog park also, Franny could easily bite another dog. The law won't be kind to you or Franny if she would have a biting incident with a human or another animal. There are many liability issues to consider....Please check out www.dogbitelaw.com.


-I'm glad you read the Culture Clash, its an excellent book. If you get a chance, do finish the other end of the leash - its another one of my personal favorites. Dr. Patricia McConnell is an excellent applied animal behaviorist. Fiesty Fido and the Cautious Canine will really give you some great ideas about how to start working on Franny's problems.

Quote:
"Thank you so much for your help. With respect to the not sitting - it's not that she didn't know what "sit" was, but that she didn't feel like holding the sit."

-Maybe Franny was tired or not feeling well. Or maybe you really have to take a look at learning theory and Franny's reinforcement history. It is quite possible that she needs more motivations. She has been traditionally trained with aversives for a good chunk of her life and this might just be a symptom of being previously trained that way. Just some food for thought...

Monique, if you have any other concerns or questions - don't be afraid to ask....I wish you the best of luck....

[Monique Shimm]

Yes, I think you are right about the therapy work. It is very stressful - a full two hours of me telling her what to do and letting strangers touch her. She does an admirable job! I have always been very proud of her. Lately, I had been leaving early because I see that she shuts down at about 1.25 and 1.5 hours into it. But we'll take a break from it for now.

I don't think she is at the point of biting people (on leash or off). Far from it. And I don't think she is at the point of biting adult dogs (Gosh, I hope I don't live to regret that statement). However, I am scared at how she is with puppies that are no longer given full license for their "bad" behavior.

But just to let you know, by accident, she was allowed near a puppy that just drover her crazy last time (it kept coming up to her even though Franny growled) and she was allowed near that young dog that she made contact with (mentioned in my previous post). In both cases, Franny left without a scene. Regretably, we shouldn't have allowed Franny into a situation where her temperment was test - but I learned something. The first case happened when I was quite far away (Franny was chasing a squirrel and the puppy showed up) and the second case happened with my husband. I am somehow sending mixed messages to my dog. Regardless of what you think of my husband's methods - they are consistent and Franny knows them. With me, she is not sure. I changed training methods but I still have a loud voice and can't help but overreact when she is doing what SHE thinks she needs to do. I seem to care more about what other people think, so I am more reactive. I think this maybe the cause - I have been unable to fully employ positive training methods.

Thanks for your help. And I will see if our trainer can help us with fully employing the positive training method.

[Monique Shimm]

Hi there,

Here's an update on Franny. Believe it or not, two weeks ago she passed the Canine Good Citizen test. She failed the last part of the test where she has to be with a stranger for 3 minutes while I left the room. But we were allowed to retake that part of the test and we past. Very proud of Franny.

Plus, we are really avoiding the parks where there are lots of dogs in one area. We are going to a park where she gets to meet dogs, but usually only or two at a time. This is working really well. I am also stepping in when I see that she is uncomfortable - either by physically standing between them or calling her away from the other dog.

I have two quick questions. Can a dog go through a fear stage for no apparent reason? And then having positive experiences, it passes through the fear stage? Meaning, do I have something to look forward to or is this going to be a long one!

The other question, is it possible to teach Franny to turn away from a dog that she is apparently fearful of. Meaning replace "growling" with "turning her body away and removing herself from the situation". I often call her away (it's very important that I call her BEFORE the growling starts, otherwise it is too difficult to tear her away) and that seems to break the spell and she gladly removes herself. Oddly enough, it seems that she growls the most with young female puppies (4 months to 18 months). Is this fear? or is this simply aggression and bulling? In the case of puppies, I now don't let her have any interaction with them. I leash her and walk away. Often the puppy bounds up to her, and I try to physically block their way. Usually Franny gets in a growl but can not lunge or stand over them.