The use of aversives in dog training

[Daniela Jantzen]

Most of us use R+ methods when teaching our dogs our way.
Some people, however, rely on aversive methods to do so.
While both approaches might work, one contains a huge risk and should therefore be avoided as much as possible!

As it is sometimes very hard for me to express myself properly in English, I have decidede to post a few words written by Ph.D. Pamela J. Reid in her book "Excel-Erated Learning":

"The use of aversive stimuli warrants a special discussion for three reasons.
First, exposing an animal to aversive stimuli produces emotional side-effects that influence the learning process.
Second, slight changes in procedure can have dramatic effects of the rate and extent of learning.
And third, you can make a lot of mistakes using positive stimuli, such as food, and the worst thing that happens is you might have a skinny or an overweight dog.
If you screw up with aversive stimuli, your dog gets traumatized and/or hurt.
It is your responsibility to make sure you know exactly what your are doing if you decide to use aversive consequences."

So please, stick to R+ methods only. If you feel you are getting nowhere, contact a local R+ - professional for help.

Danny

[Susan Medlin]

Daniele,
Your attached picture looks pretty scary! Is that your dog?

[Amber]

Thank you so much, Daniela! This was a much needed thread.

One question though...
And third, you can make a lot of mistakes using positive stimuli, such as food, and the worst thing that happens is you might have a skinny or an overweight dog.

Is that saying that we shouldn't use food? lol...now I'm confused, because everything I've read and a lot of the advice I've gotten from here says to use treats and such with Sally! lol...am I reading it wrong?

[Jody Hayes]

I don't understand the aversion training. What do I do when my beagle steals our glases or something else...everyday he is taking something off the counters or bedside tables...I do try to keep them cleaned off. I don't know how to make him stop. I read to tell him off, and then treat him when he sits? Will this stop him or is it aversion training and just training him to steal stuff for treats??? I don't know what to do, but I have got to find a way to make him stop. Any suggestions?

[Melissa Brunoehler]

Hi Amber~


Is that saying that we shouldn't use food?

No, not at all! She's saying even if you make mistakes with +R you aren't going to mess up your dog like you could using +P. Using treats the worst thing that could happen is that your pup becomes overweight. On the other hand aversives can create even bigger problems (aggression being one of them) than you were trying to fix.

Correction based training causes problems all the time, here is just one story-

A few years ago a friend of the family purchased a popular large breed puppy from a reputable breeder. He was very into dogs & training his dogs. He took the puppy everywhere he could & to puppy class. After puppy class the dog worked his way through beginners, intermediate & advanced classes. The training used in the classes was “old school” correction based training. Handlers were instructed to give leash pops & yank their dogs into the down position if they didn’t listen to the command. People often marveled at the well-trained dog, How wonderfully he listened! Well one day Max (the dog) apparently got tired of the leash pops & all the other crap people did to him. While outside visiting a friend’s house Max’s owner instructed him to “sit”. Rather than sitting Max went after his owner. Lucky for the owner Max showed tremendous bite inhibition & the owner only had bruises left from Max’s teeth. Let’s face it Max could have mauled his owner if he really wanted to.
Please do not think this story is rare or that it could never happen to you & your dog. Max was very obedient & had a very close bond with his owner. Working with dogs I unfortunately hear stories like this one quite a bit. Even if +P doesn’t cause something as severe as a dog attacking it’s owner it can definitely cause other ill effects.

[Amber]

Thanks Melissa! I just wanted to make sure because treats are the only thing Sally will work for, as she was extremely contact-deprived as a puppy. She won't work for petting or playing with toys. Matter of fact, she doesn't even know HOW to play with toys yet! lol

[Renee]

This is from Canine Behavior: A guide for Veterinarians by Bonnie Beaver:

An aversive stimulus can evoke a sympathetic fight-or-flight response such as aggression, fear or submission, and it can interfere with the lesson intended or with the human-dog bond.
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[Daniela Jantzen]

Daniele,
Your attached picture looks pretty scary! Is that your dog?
Nope, although one of our dog looks pretty much alike. :-)
This is the eye of a Timberwolf.

Danny

[Daniela Jantzen]

I don't understand the aversion training. What do I do when my beagle steals our glases or something else...everyday he is taking something off the counters or bedside tables...I do try to keep them cleaned off. I don't know how to make him stop. I read to tell him off, and then treat him when he sits? Will this stop him or is it aversion training and just training him to steal stuff for treats??? I don't know what to do, but I have got to find a way to make him stop. Any suggestions?

Ever tried the "leave it" game?
http://www.doggiebagonline. com/forum/showthread.php?t=307 8 (Link Updated -Staff)
If you need more infos or help, post your question in the training section. I am sure many members of this group have faced similar problems and would be more than willing to share their experiences with you. :-)

Danny

[Alberta Hanko]

I understand what Jody is saying. I do have the same problem with Linus. He is not so big on the countertops anymore, but will steal my Granddaughter's hard plastic toys if they are any place he can get them. No problem with the "leave it", he drops them right away, but the stealing does go on. So I always have to remember to close the door, and keep anything he might want away. I have had trouble with a "ping pong" effect with leave it--using it when he is going nuts barking and chasing the neighbor's horses through the fence. He runs over to me when I say leave it, and then back to the horse. I used advice from the old DD, and kept walking, and now make him go through a gate (we have gated our yard 1/2 way so we can have a little more control and so my neighbor can ride his horse without Linus fence chasing). It definitely helps, depending on how much excitement Linus is getting from chasing the horse versus my tasty treats, but like you, Jody, I still have the orginal problem--horse chasing, depending on his mood of the moment. :-)

Alberta & Linus

[heathea]

While outside visiting a friend’s house Max’s owner instructed him to “sit”. Rather than sitting Max went after his owner. Lucky for the owner Max showed tremendous bite inhibition & the owner only had bruises left from Max’s teeth. Let’s face it Max could have mauled his owner if he really wanted to.

I sincerely hope that this dog was taken to the vet to evaluate it's thyroid levels and check for infection. This was an interesting story, however I would think there would be much more to this than a dog just deciding he was "sick" of the treatment that he was receiving and attacking. I understand the point you are trying to make, but if you have a way to contact this friend of the family could you please fill us in on what happened next. Did the dog "decide" to tolerate his owner again, did they put him down, was he ill in some way, or was it possibly due to stress of being somewhere new? There are many possible factors, I would like to know more.
Thanks.
Heather