Nilif

[Amber]

I DON'T WANT THIS TO BE A HEATED DEBATE!!

I've had multiple people tell me that I should put Sally on NILIF. I have to say, it seems like everyone on this forum has their dog(s) on NILIF, but I don't quite get it! It just seems like the program is putting too much restraint on the dog...making them do something every time they want something. What? So they have to sit before they poop? I dunno...I'm not putting it down...I just don't get it. I like to give my dogs a little more freedom than that. Yes, it is taking me a little longer to train them, but I didn't really start training Precious until now (beyond the basics, that is) and Sally still won't move while on leash, so there's no use in even trying with her yet.

I get the basis behind the program, so no one needs to explain the program to me. I've read the article. Maybe someone can help me understand why everyone finds it so darn important, though? Thanks so much!

[Justine Archuleta]

Amber, I don't agree with some of the program. I mean when you first bring an abused dog home I don't think you should ignore them when they want attention. It should be sure, what a good dog you are, and loads of praise. I just wanted to say that I don't quite agree with it.

[Amber]

That's the thing...Sally was a rescue who had no human contact for the first 6 months of her life. I can tell her "No" when she is moving my hand with her nose and she'll stop. It doesn't seem to bother her that I can't pet her at that moment. She will try again a few minutes later, but she'll wait until I have my hands free. (She's a very smart dog!)

Now that she's in a real home with someone she is starting to trust more, she wants me to pet her the ENTIRE time she is on my lap, unless I get her around her bedtime (9 pm...lol) But, like I said before, I can tell her "No" and she'll stop moving my hand with her nose.

[Krysta Smith]

I have to admit I only do NILIF partway. Lola sits before meals, going outside and things like that but I don't make her do anything if I want to play with her or cuddle her. I just use it for the big things (I guess attention is a big thing though:rolleyes:). I think it's more about taking the control away from your dog so they become more confident and secure. Instead of them judging a situation for themselves they will look to you for guidance. Before I put Lola on it she used to do whatever she wanted because she pretty much controlled everything (I left her food out so she ate when she wanted, she had all her toys out so she could play with whatever she wanted, and she was becoming quite the little terror :o ) She's a lot calmer than she used to be and sitting before meals and that has become automatic for her. I usually don't have to worry about her running out the front door either. I agree that throwing this on a dog who's already got a lot going on does seem a bit overwhelming.

[Amber]

I think it's more about taking the control away from your dog so they become more confident and secure. Instead of them judging a situation for themselves they will look to you for guidance.

How can taking control away from a dog make them more confident?? I guess I'm thinking in people terms, not dog terms! lol I'm sooo confused! lol

Thanks for trying to explain though

[Alberta Hanko]

I think maybe alot of this depends on the dog--and I could be wrong here. I do use NILIF with Linus. When we first adopted him, he was a pushy little creature. Barked at us when he wanted attention, barked at us at the table because he wanted food--and I mean non stop barking! He would go up to my DH and if he wasn't paying attention to him, Linus would start bopping DH's feet with his paws. I feel with him that it helps build his confidence in us, as the providers of all good things. And hopefully will help him as he faces the things that set him off, thus gaining confidence in himself which should help him to become less reactive. It is also better for him if he sits before he goes outside--we have not had any real problems with escapes out the front door since implementing this. This also slows him down, and give the squirrels a chance to get away :-). But more than that, it has helped him to focus on me and hear me (and we have a long way to go), when things are getting a little stressed for him. Love to hear what others have to say either way.

Alberta & Linus

[Amber]

I see...so it helps with the fight or flight response? Why not just put your dog in a sit stay command before opening the door? Like I said before, I just feel like the program doesn't let the dog have enough freedom...I may be wrong. Of course, I guess I could just do what many people on here do and just implement PART of the program. Precious already sits before getting her food and treats anyway on her own...I didn't teach her that! lol. I have to get her to sit before opening the door as well, because she's a jumper (and we don't open the door usually unless someone is coming in or out), so I guess I have been using NILIF in part without knowing it. I just put her in a sit stay, although she doesn't fully know stay for long periods of time yet.

[babyblue]

I think the whole thing about taking control over things from your dog is so your dog isn't stressed out so much.
If your dog thinks he is in control and that he must provide, protect, etc all the things for "his" pack then he gets all of these situtions thrown on him. The dog can get stressed out having to deal with so many different things. Some dogs can become stressed to the point of aggression. So for some dogs it is better that they don't have to deal with being leader and just letting someone else deal with it.
I also do NILIF, but only modified. I don't make them do things (i.e. sit) for affection, cuddling, or playtime. IMO that just goes too far with it.

[Amber]

Gotcha! Thanks, Ashley! That does make sense.

[Sarah Moore]

I'm sure many others will chime in on this, but for my dogs, NILIF has been a lifesaver, and is absolutely necessary in maintaining order in the slightly chaotic household of 3 dogs and 2 cats I agree that each dog has different needs and sometimes when one of them comes up and puts his head (Lucky is famous for this) on my lap and looks up at me with those big brown eyes... well, we've all been there ;) Anyhow, as Ashley said, NILIF takes the pressure off the dogs to take control of situations on their own. This is esp. true for my 2 boys, Lucky and Teddy. Teddy has mild food aggression that we are able to control because of NILIF. Teddy knows to look to me before he eats, plays, gets petted, etc. Anyone who has 3 dogs knows that is essential to control their natural "pack" mentality and NILIF is a great way to do it, and I believe it strengthens the bond between dog and owner because dogs understand giver of resources better then they understand pretty much anything

My :twocents:

(btw, I so wish I had my camera right now (my husband has in on a business trip currently), all three dogs are asleep at my feet, Ginger is draped over Teddy, who is 1/2 in her bed and 1/2 on the floor and Lucky is next to them. It’s really quite adorable :))

[Amber]

Ok, so my question is...Is it really necessary to put my dogs on NILIF though?

The only thing Precious does is jump on people when they come through the door. Like I said, I guess I kind of do NILIF, in part, without knowing it, because I put her in a sit before anyone comes through the door. It doesn't really help though, because as soon as they take five steps she starts jumping again and I have to remind her to sit again. Luckily she's a toy poodle, so it doesn't hurt...it's just annoying.

As for Sally, NILIF is a no-go because she does nothing while she is out of her crate. She's a rescue with multiple socialization issues, who is in learned helplessness stage at this point. The only commands she knows is "Stay", "Out" (when I want her to come out of her crate for something), and "Outside" (for potty time).

I've had a few people tell me that Sally needs to be put on this program. I'm supposing it's for the reason that Ashley stated...security and comfort. My training book said that Positive Dog Training will build confidence in shy dogs as well as make them feel secure with themselves...am I making a mountain out of a mole hill?? I'm just trying to understand this program more. I think I get it though. Thanks everyone.

Was I right about the program helping the fight or flight response? Sally runs most of the time, unless she is in her crate when she hears the noise...then she kind of hides her head under her body, which is hard to do since she has a rolly polly belly! lol

[Rowena Fry]

Amber, from what I gather, NILIF is pretty much the same programme as Jan Fennell describes in her book 'The Dog Listener'. She goes into a bit more detail about why it is important for you to be the leader of the 'pack', but the basic idea is that YOU, not your dog, should be the 'alpha dog'.

This actually helps the dog because it relieves the stress of taking care of its pack (you and your family) all the time. It doesn't need to follow you around worrying that you're okay because you make the decisions. It doesn't have to destroy the house in panic when you go out to work, because you're the leader and you come and go as you wish. It doesn't need to protect you because its your job to provide and protect him or her, and they have complete trust in you. (That's stripping it waaaay down of course.)

In that case it would help with the dogs fight or flight reaction because it relieves them of the stress of having to make this decision for themselves. They will look to you in a time of 'crisis' and take their cue from what you are doing.

Hmmm, never thought about this, but if a dog does have ultimate trust in you as its leader, what happens if something happens when you're not around? Who will the dog look to then? Hopefully dogs will know to make their own decision in that circumstance. Just a thought.

[Eric Vecc]

I definitely use NILIF on Bailey. It works great but you have to understand the underlying benefits of it. Bailey sits and stays on a rug while we prepare every meal. If he moves, I stop preparing his meal (believe me...he doesn't move anymore). Now I can put his bowl down without his nose going in and spilling the water before I set it down. We made him speak before he got to go outside and now he lets us know when he has to go. If he wants me to throw his toy, he has to sit and stare at me. Now when people come over, he will bring his toy over to them and sit in front of them - very proper-like. It also works to establish commands. Why give him a treat for doing a sit when I can just throw his toy and make him just as happy. It also builds a strong relationship between owner and dog. He has to rely on me for food, treats, games, toys and pets. He knows he has to do something for it though, so it benefits both of us. It's no different than raising kids and saying "do the dishes before you go play." How could you ever look at this like you are taking a dog's freedom away??? Does he have food everyday? Is he allowed to go to the bathroom when he has to go? Is he allowed to go outside for walks and play? Can he sleep anytime he wants? That sounds like freedom to me! If you cave every time the dog wants something - like throw his toy for him just because he jams it into your face he will think he is dominate over you. If he comes to you and does something for you to get the toy thrown - that is called something for something. It is used in everyday life and makes training a dog much, much easier.

[Sheryl]

My understanding of the NILIF program is to provide leadership and structure, just like we'd have boundaries for our kids. Maybe not all dogs need it, but I have been trying it with Harley and it seems to be helping. I think some of his behaviour is because he doesn't know what else to do. If he knows that I have things in hand, he can relax and just be the dog while I am Controller of the Situation. He doesn't feel like he has to bark or growl or be aggressive. At least that's what I am hoping to get out of it.

[Pavlina Ortiz]

Amber, from what I gather, NILIF is pretty much the same programme as Jan Fennell describes in her book 'The Dog Listener'. She goes into a bit more detail about why it is important for you to be the leader of the 'pack', but the basic idea is that YOU, not your dog, should be the 'alpha dog'.

This actually helps the dog because it relieves the stress of taking care of its pack (you and your family) all the time. It doesn't need to follow you around worrying that you're okay because you make the decisions. It doesn't have to destroy the house in panic when you go out to work, because you're the leader and you come and go as you wish. It doesn't need to protect you because its your job to provide and protect him or her, and they have complete trust in you. (That's stripping it waaaay down of course.)

In that case it would help with the dogs fight or flight reaction because it relieves them of the stress of having to make this decision for themselves. They will look to you in a time of 'crisis' and take their cue from what you are doing.

Hmmm, never thought about this, but if a dog does have ultimate trust in you as its leader, what happens if something happens when you're not around? Who will the dog look to then? Hopefully dogs will know to make their own decision in that circumstance. Just a thought.


I was wondering if anyone read the book The Dog Listener. I am new to this forum and I've never heard of NILIF so I just did a rendom search on yahoo to find out what it was and it reminded me of the book by Jan Fennell. Which I LOVE by the way and for our dog and us it was a lifesaver.
From what Amber is saying about her Precious - she is an Alpha of her pack and that is why she is jumping on everyone who comes through the door. She is trying to reach their eye level to look into their eyes. As soon as eye contact have been made - she won. She is making sure she is still in her Alpha position and by acheaving an eye contact with whoever comes throught the door - she gets the prize.

We don't ignore our dog all the time. We make sure we ignore him when we get home, and after while, he does not even bother to get up. He is waiting for us to invite him to come over.

I am curious to hear more about this NILIF. I really like Jan Fennell positive aproach, but for me, it's hard to apply it without knowing more about it.

[Melissa Brunoehler]

Hi Palvina~

Here is an article on NILIF http://www.doggiebagonline. com/articles/article.php?articlei d=15

Our philisophy here of NILIF does not having anything to do with who or what is Alpha. Alpha is a term that is way overused. There are very few dogs that are actually Alpha. I am my dogs' leader. I am fair & just & have no worry that my dogs' are trying to steal my role as "leader".


From what Amber is saying about her Precious - she is an Alpha of her pack and that is why she is jumping on everyone who comes through the door. She is trying to reach their eye level to look into their eyes. As soon as eye contact have been made - she won. She is making sure she is still in her Alpha position and by acheaving an eye contact with whoever comes throught the door - she gets the prize.


Dogs jump on people all the time. It has nothing to do with being "alpha" or trying to "dominate" that person. You are right that dogs usually want a nice face to face greeting with people & that is why they jump up to them.



We don't ignore our dog all the time. We make sure we ignore him when we get home, and after while, he does not even bother to get up. He is waiting for us to invite him to come over.

I am curious to hear more about this NILIF. I really like Jan Fennell positive aproach, but for me, it's hard to apply it without knowing more about it.[/QUOTE]

[Amber]

I agree, Melissa. Precious shows very little dominant behaviors towards Sally at all...and none towards the humans in the household whatsoever. The reason why Precious jumps when people come through the door is people used to greet her with a lot of petting and high pitched voices when she was little, so she expects it now. Now that I've been on here, and previously on DD, I have learned a lot and we ignore her until she sits when we walk through the door. When she sits, then she gets petted. It helps for her excited urination as well! lol

Sally and Precious balance each other out very well. If Sally pushes Precious too far, which isn't often, Precious will let Sally know and vice versa...of course Sally will let Precious know by growling or barking and Precious will just sit on Sally's head, but it all works out in the end! lol

[Vanessa Lee]

I use NILIF on both dogs but like others I don't follow the entire program. I simply try not to give them most things for free. Doing so has changed my toy poodles behavior greatly. Making them work for most of their privledges teaches them that you are relevant.

[aussiesmum]

It does work...

The Background: We have used NILIF on Aussie since day one. She doesn't have to do something special for our attention, BUT she doesn't get to command my attention. She isn't allowed to paw me for petting. I am more strict with NILIF than my partner is and it shows...

A few examples of NILIF at work:

- Sprained Ankle- Aussie has hurt herself at the part twice. Both times she gets up, whines, then waits for us. We go to her, check out her paw, then tell her "ok" and she just carries on. She looks to us for safety.

-Fetch- My partner and I play fect with her. When she brings the object back, my partner often has a hard time getting it from her (she will try to play tug-of-war with a stick with my partner OR se will drop it then snatch it as he is picking it up) Now with me, she doesn't do it. But that is because I make her drop it, I don't take it from her. And I make her "leave it" and "stay" then I pick up the object. I can really see the difference here between her interaction with me and my partner when we play fetch.

-come- again. When I whistle (ok, I have an unfair advantage, I can whistle VERY loudly) she hauls tail. She doesn't always come when my partner comes.

Fact is, I am the controller in her life and she listens to me better, but also looks to me (both of us) for safety and things. She definatley cuddles more with my partner (but he allows it more than I do) but she listens to me much better.

I think a large part of it is also the way in which we train her, but NILIF is great of all of us.