Picking up Magic a good thing?

[Summer Magic]

When I picked Magic up from her encounter with the chi mix, (In an earlier thread called Your opinions please) she settled down very quickly and showed absolutely no aggression toward me. I'm wondering if it would help her other aggression triggers if I picked her up when she starts her frenzy with the phone and door bell. She will come to me when I call her if someone knocks at the door but I have never attempted to pick her up. I just put her in her crate and answer the door. She is not too heavy and I can easily carry her with her body upright propped on my left hip with my left arm around her as if she were a baby. I do carry her around like that when I hold her and she seems comfortable that way.

[Amber]

Luckily, Collies aren't very heavy! lol! That may help her (as long as it doesn't start hurting your back then you'll be alright!)...I say try it and see what happens. Get someone to ring the doorbell and when she goes nuts, pick her up. If she calms down, then you found something that works. Of course, that may only be a temporary fix.

Do you get the National Geographic Channel where you live? Have you ever watched Cesar Millan's show "The Dog Whisperer"? He's an AMAZING animal behaviorist/trainer. I want to give you his site. If you are interested, please go to it and take a look. He doesn't just do one on one...he has a whole pack he deals with at one time, and no fights occur! It's amazing. I'm thinking about getting him to come and do a consultation with Sally. He does home consultations or you can bring your dog to him (in CA) for a trip ranging anywhere between 2 weeks to 2 months (depending how bad the case is). He has done everything from Poodles who jump too much to killing Pit Bulls.
http://www.dogpsychologycen ter.com/

[Renee]

Hey guys-

Stay away from Cesar Milan. Many respectable behaviorists are very upset over this guy.Cesar has no education or credentials and is doing some very damaging things to peoples' dogs. His clients are not happy with him and are currently seeking out real behaviorists in the los angeles area to help them. I know this because I'm on a few message boards and this is what many behaviorists have said. Cesar makes all his clients sign their lives away before they work with him - I'm assuming this is why he hasn't been sued yet... If anyone is the the California area, I can recommend some very credible, educated and respectable behavior consultants...

[Amber]

That's kinda funny you say that, Renee. I tried some of the stuff that he's done on his show and they worked on Precious.

[Renee]

Amber

His techniques can be harmful to dogs...so proceed with caution...

[heathea]

Hey Renee,
I am dying to hear some of this stuff that the people he worked with are saying. I have watched the show a couple of times, I have no real opinion at the moment. Would you mind taking some time to give some specifics, I have a few friends who LOVE the show, and if I am going to preach about it, I will need some backup information.
Thanks,
Heather

[Renee]

Heather,

What kind of stuff did you see when you watched the TV show?

[Grace Erick]

I've heard about him, but never saw him on tv. I have to see when he is on. I do have cable. I guess he must be on the Animal Planet channel.

I have also heard he is not good for some reason, but don't know why. I did see a promo for him where he was going to be on w/Jay Leno but missed it. He had this nasty chihuahua he was holding, and I would have loved to see him deal with that, because I can't believe you can turn a nasty chihuahua around in one show if that's what he does with the dogs. If he did, he must have brought in a different nicer stand in chihuahua during a commercial or when he had his back turned:)

[Monique Shimm]

I've watched a lot of Cesar. I must say that I like a lot of what he does. However, there are many things which make me cringe, like the time he dragged a Great Dane across a slippery floor to make him overcome his fear of these surfaces. (I think you guys call this flooding???) Anyways, the dog was so stressed I thought he was going to have a heart attack (breathing quickly, drooling like crazy, listless eyes...). I think Cesar could make a lot of people dangerous if they attempt what he does (a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing). However, it is interesting to be able to watch these dogs interact and react. It can increase your skills in watching the calming signals the dogs are making and since I record it, I can watch the signs the dogs make before it lunges or attacks. For example, I saw that episode with the chihuahua that was mentioned earlier. It was interesting to see how the dog's body language changed when it was on the owner's lap versus separated from the owner. Interesting!

So I think it is good to watch, just make sure that you (as was suggested by Reena) watch with caution.

Perhaps the problem is that his fixes are short term. He probably shocks the dogs into submission because they have never been given rules of conduct before - these are problem dogs afterall. But as I have read in Culture Clash (I think that's the name of Jean Donaldson's book) punishments like leash corrections or yelling "no" can be useful to get a dog's attention (if timed well and given appropriately - which apparently we almost never do appropriately), but punishments are not longterm solutions.

[heathea]

The show is on the National Geographic channel at 10:00Eastern Time/9 Central.

Renee; in all of the episodes (total 3) I have seen he has advocated exercising dogs to expel the excess energy. In some he has used treadmills, some he has taught owners to walk their dogs.

"His clients are not happy with him and are currently seeking out real behaviorists in the los angeles area to help them. I know this because I'm on a few message boards and this is what many behaviorists have said."

Again, my experience with the show is limited and that is why I asked you what you had heard regarding the owners he had worked with.

I did see the episode with the great dane who was nervous about the tile floor. It was harsh to perform the flooding exercise with him, however they went back to check on the dog at a later time and he was in the classroom with the teacher.

I honestly have no set opinion regarding this show so I cannot at this point recommend it or tell people he is the worst thing out there. The majority of what I have seen was him exercising various dogs. I know that in the opening credits he does an alpha roll on a dog, but I have never seen him do that in the show.

Have a good day everyone.
Heather

[Amber]

I can honestly say I have never seen him do an alpha roll on a dog in any episode, and I've seen them all to date. I'll have to watch the opening credits a little more carefully and see what you are talking about.

[heathea]

Let me know what you see, I would swear I saw him with an attacking dog in the "flipped over" position. But, having only seen a few episodes, I could be wrong.
Heather

[Renee]

He alpha rolls dogs..........uses force, flooding techniques to solve fear and aggression problems when he should be using systematic desentization and counterconditioning. He basically has many behaviorists and behavior consultants ticked off because he is using aversives on dogs with fear and aggression. So all that really happens is behavior is temporarily suppressed. There are some California based behavior consultants that are currently seeing Milan's ex-clients because their dogs who have fear/aggression were not "magically cured"......

[Jarrod Stafford]

Renee I am just curious...are you going to try helping her and giving her some advice about constantly picking up her Collie, or are you just going to keep talking about some tv personality?

[Monique Shimm]

Okay, lets be clear here. Renee is here to help us because she wants to help. She is not required to help us.

And help she has! :bunny:

She has already answered one of the poster's questions on another thread.

[Maria Juliano]

I have been watching Cesar Milan's show and I must say I find it quite entertaining...most of the dog owners on the show show a lack of discipline and alpha roll. I don't find Cesar's methods threating in any way. I think his approach is to show the owner "leadership" control of the dog and situation. Yesterday, he was explaining to a client the importance of +R or NILIF. Each episode/case is about 15 minutes in duration. I was impressed he did a follow up visit to the client who didn't get the NILIF. It turned out the owner was in fear all over again and the dog picked up on her emotion. He quickly guided her to think of positive things and keeping her "fear" in check while walking her dog. I guess it's all a matter of perception.

[heathea]

I am the one who asked her more about the tv show. Most postings tend to get off track, and I like it that way as it makes things more interesting.
I find it interesting that people either love it or hate it. In my <grin> vast experience of 3 episodes I did not see him perform an alpha roll on a dog.
If nothing else, it is a show that has people talking.
Take care.
Heather

[Alberta Hanko]

Ah - I missed this part of the discussion, and came back to see what was happening. Renee, I am glad you mentioned the Cesar Milan show. As you know I am on a quest for a behaviorist/trainer to help me with Linus, and am following looking for someone who uses positive reinforcement. The first person I contacted, am doing e-mails with a description of Linus's problems and where we are in training and what my goals are, was kind enough to call me even though he was not interested in working with Linus. However, he did talk about walking Linus head-on into his fears (and at that point mentioned Cesar Milan, and said that is what he recommends). He also mentioned if Linus was overly fixed on something and I wasn't getting his attention I should sort of tweak him (stiff fingers back of the neck, tap on the rear). I am afraid that walking Linus headlong into these problems is what made them as severe as they are. And carefully working with him, I have made some--although it is very slow--progress. I can say for Linus, this type of training would not work.

Thanks Renee for the advice you have given so far. It sure is helping me.

Alberta & Linus

[Renee]

Heather -

Nothing wrong with getting off track.....it makes life a little more interesting.

After seeing his show on NG, I wonder how legitimate all the other non-fiction types of TV shows are. My background is in biology and chemistry. I really don't know much about topics like history, geography, religion, politics etc - other than a few introductory college classes that I've taken. Let me just say that you would never want to be my partner for Trivial Pursuit because I'm terrible. Now I think twice everytime I turn something like the history channel and wonder about the accuracy of what I'm watching....

[Renee]

Alberta,

Flooding is a very dangerous technique and can backfire - even when performed "correctly". I recently attended an aggression seminar and the behaviorist used a flooding technique on a fearful/reactive dog. The flooding technique backfired on the behaviorist and she is very lucky that she wasn't bitten (which I later found out that she has been bitten while performing this demo at other seminars). I'm very glad that you are very patient with Linus and seeking out professional help. Keep up the great work. Having a dog who is reactive/fearful/aggressive can be very draining. Try to keep a weekly journal of the progress you make - even the small things. If you have a "bad" day with Linus, take a break and look at your "Linus journal". I find that this approach really helps me when I work with my leash reactive dog. That and a stiff drink...

[Renee]

Jarrod-

pour yourself a nice glass of wine, relax and enjoy your weekend...

[Jarrod Stafford]

I don't need wine to relax and enjoy a weekend, I have dogs. I just wanted to say that I am amused how you completely avoided the question. Keep up the good work ;)

[Renee]

I was actually leaving that for Renee Premaza to answer since she is the advisor of the defensive dogs forum.... but she has been very busy lately....that and I have already answered Judy's questions about Magic previously and privately...

[Maria Juliano]

Everyone-

Cesar Milan alpha rolls dogs..........uses force, flooding techniques to solve fear and aggression problems when he should be using systematic desentization and counterconditioning. He basically has all behaviorists and behavior consultants ticked off because he is using aversives on dogs with fear and aggression. So all that really happens is behavior is temporarily suppressed. There are some California based behavior consultants that are currently seeing Milan's ex-clients because their dogs who have fear/aggression were not "magically cured"......

Hi Renee,

I have watched several episodes of Cesar Millan's show and I have yet to see force or flooding methods to correct a dog's behavior.

Here is a bit of information as to how Cesar's philosophy works:

Cesar Millan teaches that to be an effective owner, you need to become your canine's calm, assertive pack leader. A dog that doesn't trust its human to be a good pack leader becomes unbalanced and often exhibits unwanted or anti-social behaviors.

Cesar does not train dogs in the sense of teaching commands like "sit," "stay," or "heel"— he rehabilitates unbalanced dogs and helps "re-train" their owners to better understand how to see the world through a dog's eyes. Cesar counsels people on how to calmly, assertively, and consistently establish boundaries and prove to their dogs that they are solid pack leaders; this helps to correct and control unwanted behavior. He doesn't believe in "quick fixes," even though changing some behaviors can appear to happen in a relatively short time. None of those changes will stick, however, unless the owners work consistently with their dogs. Cesar uses a stern voice and a calm, assertive touch to correct unwanted behaviors. In his opinion, rehabilitation never involves yelling or hitting a dog.

[Monique Shimm]

Hi there,

I've posted earlier on this thread with regard to Cesar. Hey, I'm a big fan - and I think I have watched nearly every episode. And he DOES use flooding techniques (I mentioned the Great Dane earlier). And in some cases, he DOES use alpha type roll (used on Chiuwaua in another episode) - held it down until it relaxed and submitted. And I've seen him use it on other dogs. Despite that, I think it's an excellent show. We just need to watch and use critical judgement on what we can use and what we should not use. Some of the methods can backfire (especially if we try to use some of his techniques just by watching the show). Whether we like his methods or not, Cesar does have a great capacity to read dogs (and their owners). And the show does have a disclaimer at the beginning that we should not use these techiques without the aid of a behaviorist.

I particularily like his philosophy of exercise, discipline and affection (in that order). He understands that many people adopt dogs - not understanding the extensive exercise that many breeds need - and then the dog develops bad behaviors due to frustration. His advice often includes physical exercise of up to an hour, depending on the dog.

PS, I have often seen him use postive methods like the time he was confronted with a dog that didn't like walking on a leash. He picked up the dog and went down the block. He put the dog down, pointed it in the direction of the home, and the dog eager to get home walked with Cesar back to the house. It was the start of creating a positive association with the leash.

He almost never uses food as a motivator. Except in one case for a pitbull who was so scared to be outside the home.

Thanks,
Monique

[Maria Juliano]

I too watched the episode with the Great Dane who was afraid to walk on slippery surfaces. I didn't see any flooding nor force used on that episode. What I saw was him walking ( a bit of tugging on the leash) the dog thru his fear and telling the owner she needed to be consistent with her leadership and the dog's resistance to do what she wants.

As for the Chi episode, I watched that also, and again I didn't see any force. Cesar was demonstrating to the owner how to redirect the dog's brain to calm down, submit to the owner. This Chi was the alpha in that household not the owner.

Cesar endorces consistency and leadership on the part of the owner( without cruelty) when rehabilitating a dog.

[Renee]

Maria-

What you are describing (Great Dane episode) is in fact flooding.

I'm did not see the Chi episode, so I'm not sure what you mean by making the "Chi submit to the owner". If you mean alpha rolling, then that is not an approprite way to "assert" leadership over our dogs.

[Amber]

What Cesar said, and of course I'm putting it in my own words because I can't remember exactly what he said or exactly how he put it, was that dogs use their mouths, among other things, in their packs to assert dominance over each other. If one dog is doing something that the Alpha does not like, the Alpha will discipline by holding the offender down with their mouth sometimes. (I have seen this by the way, so don't say that this is not true.) He showed the owner a way of doing the same behavior with her hand so that the Chi would calm down. The Chi was much more calm and just layed there and allowed Cesar and the owner to pet him for the rest of the segment instead of being a spitting Tazmanian devil everytime Cesar would get near the owner.

[heathea]

Okay, I can answer this one. There is a great article about a research study that was done over 30 years with a dog pack to really learn dog behavior. Hopefully someone will post it.
What they learned is, only sub pack members ever do the alpha roll or use their mouths to hold down any adult dog. Only dogs squabbling for placement within the pack lower than the alpha perform this technique. So, in effect, by alpha rolling your dog you are informing the dog that they can continue to fight for your position at a later time. Explained some experiences I had many years ago quite well.

I don't believe Ceaser knows everything. I enjoy watching the show at times, but that doesn't mean I agree with everything that is done. Not everything he does is bad, not everything is good. I enjoy watching as an informed viewer.
-Heather

[Hee Yung Lee]

I don't believe Ceaser knows everything.

I don't believe there is anyone who knows everything. :mrgreen: But I do know that everyone has there opinions about everything.

[Melissa Brunoehler]

Here's the article~


http://www.clickersolutions .com/articles/2001/dominance.htm

Okay, I can answer this one. There is a great article about a research study that was done over 30 years with a dog pack to really learn dog behavior. Hopefully someone will post it.
What they learned is, only sub pack members ever do the alpha roll or use their mouths to hold down any adult dog. Only dogs squabbling for placement within the pack lower than the alpha perform this technique. So, in effect, by alpha rolling your dog you are informing the dog that they can continue to fight for your position at a later time. Explained some experiences I had many years ago quite well.

[Renee]

Heather and Monique,

Excellent posts...


Alpha rolling may or may not initally work, but in essence, you are meeting aggression with aggression. You are turning yourself into a bully, not a leader. Instead, we implement NILIF, Please and Thank You programs or Leader of the Pack programs (we have many names for them). This is how we benevolently show our dogs that we are the leader.


Many times, alpha rolling, will only temporarily suppress the dog's aggressive behavior only to find that the aggression pops up later (and sometimes people are bitten by their dogs). Alpha rolling is a very threatening tactic and can elicit fear or aggression (related to fear). I would like to point out in wolf packs and dog-dog interactions, the lower status animal rolls onto his or her back on its own accord and they are not forced into that postition.

[heathea]

I just love dog behavior. If I could do it all over again....I would LOVE to become a dog trainer. I have a BS in biology and environmental science, but little to no animal behavior (other than reptiles, lots of experience there) besides what I have researched myself for my dogs. Oh well, maybe in my next life! :)
-Heather

[Renee]

Heather-

You have a great foundation of knowledge to build on....and there are many ways you can learn more about animal behavior....


http://www.doggiebagonline. com/forum/showthread.php?t=630

[heathea]

It may be something I will consider going into formally in about 5 years (I am only 27). We shall see.
:)

[Maria Juliano]

Maria-

What you are describing (Great Dane episode) is in fact flooding.

I'm did not see the Chi episode, so I'm not sure what you mean by making the "Chi submit to the owner". If you mean alpha rolling, then that is not an approprite way to "assert" leadership over our dogs.

Renee,

It's all a matter of perception...you see it as flooding, I don't.

I had a similar experience with my female shih tzu, Lina. She was afraid to go down the steps of our home. I put on her leash and led her down. She resisted at first, but with a little tug, I was able to show her how to do it. Now she does it on her own and she shows no more fear. Actually, she is very proud every time she follows her brother Giotto and I down the steps.

[Renee]

Hi Maria-

Here is a link that explains some of the "tools" that are used in behavior modification.

http://www.k9aggression.com/Aggression-Treatment/behaviorMod.html#tac tics

Here is an article about systematic desentization and fear

http://www.kuvasz.info/kuvaszfear.htm

A link to why we should learn about behavior mod.

http://www.k9aggression.com/Aggression-Treatment/behaviorMod.html#why

[Maria Juliano]

Hi Maria-

Here is a link that explains some of the "tools" that are used in behavior modification.

http://www.k9aggression.com/Aggression-Treatment/behaviorMod.html#tac tics

Here is an article about systematic desentization and fear

http://www.kuvasz.info/kuvaszfear.htm

A link to why we should learn about behavior mod.

http://www.k9aggression.com/Aggression-Treatment/behaviorMod.html#why

Renee,

Thanks for the links. In the first link (under Flooding) it states:
Flooding: is the opposite of desensitization and should be used as a last resort and only at the advice of a truly qualified expert. This is clearly why Cesar Millan is called in to help as a "last resort"!

[Renee]

Here is the quote in its entirety from http://www.k9aggression.com/Aggress...od.html#ta ctics


"Flooding: is the opposite of desensitization and should be used as a last resort and only at the advice of a truly qualified expert. Involves prolonged exposure at a level that provokes the response in the animal so that the animal eventually gives up. This can damage the dog."

A behavior consultant on one of my message boards was talking about an episode of the dog whisperer where a hound mix was fearful of water, baths, water hoses. Apparently a flooding technique was used on this dog - he was exposed to the hose until he was too tired to panic anymore. The next day they forced this dog to take a bath and he was extremely stressed out. Then Buddy, the hound mix, bit Cesar's hand. Did any of you guys see this, because I did not. If this is what happended, this is flooding backfiring......inst ead of a fearful dog, we now have an aggressive dog. When I hear things like this, many questions come to mind....Who did these people work with before Cesar - if anyone? What kind of techniques/training were used prior? Did Cesar try systematic desentization and counterconditioning first. How is the dog now? Was a full behavioral work up done? Did they interview the guardians? If +P/-R only temporarily suppresses behavior and does nothing to change "underlying emotion" of the dog, why was this technique used? For you guys that regularly watch the show, are any of these issues properly addressed?

I think it just goes back to what Monique said about critical judgement. Unfortunately as the show gains popularity, more people are talking about it and are trying some of these types of techniques, much to the detriment of their canines.

[Jarrod Stafford]

Renee B, how much hands on experience do you have training dogs? I am not asking to create an argument or anything, I am sincerely curious. Thanks

[Colleen]

Renee, how much hands on experience do you have training dogs? I am not asking to create an argument or anything, I am sincerely curious. Thanks

Jarrod and all,
I hate to step in here, because I am all for open discussion and really am one to allow users to work things out amongst themselves, but I have to say that there are no innocent questions when asked in this regard, especially considering the previous comments you've made towards Renee in this very thread. Renee has proven herself time and again when it comes to hands-on canine expertise and I find it offensive that it would be questioned by another member of this forum. I cannot imagine your question has a productive intent and I would prefer if these types comments are left out of the conversations.

The purpose of this forum is to provide a positive, encouraging atmosphere for all types of canine questions and problems. Comments that detract from that environment are a hinderance to the productivity of those who really wish to learn something while spending time on this site. If you would like to express your thoughts towards a certain issue, I encourage you to do so in a manner that is productive and proactive. Otherwise, please refrain from comments that may be taken as rude or insensitive. If you have to preface what you want to say with "I don't mean to be rude" or "Sorry if this offends someone", then you probably don't need to say it.

These comments go for everyone and do not apply only to this situation. Please direct any further comments regarding this issue to me directly if you feel additional discussion is necessary. I appreciate your understanding and look forward to more positive, encouraging discussions about our beloved pooches.

Sincerely,
Colleen

[Amber]

I do have to say, in Jarrod's defense, that some of us...me included (sorry Jarrod) kinda jumped on him when he made a statement in a previous thread. I'm pretty sure he just said what he said to cover all bases with everyone. I'm not in opposition to what you said, Colleen...I just don't want you to think that he's being condescending.