Canine Learning Theory +/- R & +/-P [Archive]

Renee

04-09-2005, 11:35 AM

Ok guys, I'm gonna do my best to explain some basic learning theory. If I'm not making sense or I screw up, let me know!

Training Methods:

Postive Reinforcement (+R): Applying something to increase behavior

Negative Reinforcement(-R): Taking away something to increase behavior

Positive Punishment (+P): Adding something to decrease behavior

Negative Punishment (-P): Taking away something to decrease behavior

Examples:

+R: Owner says "Come Spunky!", Spunky complies and owner gives spunky a hotdog piece.

-R: Owner is teaching his dog to heel with a choke chain, dog is not heeling, owner then pulls the choke chain tight until dog heels, dog starts heeling, then owner releases the tightness on choke chain

+P: Dog sees owner and gets excited, dog jumps up to greet owner, owner knees dog in the chest, dog moves away from owner and doesn't jump

-P: An owner is playing with her new puppy, puppy nips owner, owner turns her back to puppy, leaves the room, and closes the door so the puppy can't follow

Ok, now lets talk about the rules of punishment - I'm mostly talking about +P and -R:

Punishers can suppress all behavior across the board - even the behaviors that you are trying to teach.

Punishers only temporarily suppress the undesired behavior. You still need to train the correct response to take the place of the undesired behavior. This is where we see a lot of fallout and other behavioral issues

Punishment is strongly associated with the handler. I think this needs no explaining.

Punishment is difficult to execute properly because the punishment needs to be only be associated with the target behavior (undesired behavior). This is impossible to execute because we get what is called a Unpredictable Avoidance Response. Which in plain english means that the dog didn't associate the punishment with his "bad behavior". He may have associated the punishment with the handler or the location (like the backyard). Now the dog starts avoiding the owner or the backyard

Punishment with poor timing isn't punishment, it's confusing to the dog and it's down right abusive. When I say timing I mean 0.5 seconds or less.

Punishers can lead to aggression in dogs - dogs are fight or flight animals. How many times would I have to punch you before you decide to punch me back?

Punishment must occur each and everytime the behavior does - otherwise you will only make the behavior stronger.

You must make a huge impression with a punisher and should only be a 1 time occurance (if used correctly). How much is too much? How much it too little. This is where people really get into trouble. I believe if people can't even train with +R and treats, they certainly wouldn't have the judgement to execute this particular point on punishers properly (I know I couldn't).

Punishment Summary:

On paper, punishment is highly effective, but then we add in all the side effects (see the above list) and consequences (fallout). This is why positive reinforcement is the more effective choice. Using punishment(-R/+P) correctly is generally more difficult than using (+R/-P). The stakes are much higher and we generally see a lot of fallout (erosion of the human-animal bond). For those of you who work at shelters, you may have even seen a dog who has Learned Helplessness. This is a dog who has been exposed to so much punishment and negativity that it just shuts down - its very sad.

Well, in a nutshell that is why we use +R/-P. I would like to talk more about Progression of Behavior and Learning, the ABC's of training, reward schedules, Reward Marks, No Reward Marks, Postive Directives, leash/collar desentization (how people mistakenly desentize their dogs to a gl and think they need a choke or prong) etc - but I'll get to that later. I have a doggie birthday to attend to. My neighbor's Husky just turned 3 and they are having cake and ice cream. Aren't dogs fun!

Later,

Hee Yung Lee

04-09-2005, 11:55 AM

Good post!! Very clear explanations and examples. Thanks!

I think training methods should be chosen according to the individual dog and owner. What works for one dog may not work for another dog.

What works for me is lots of positive reinforcement and I think it should be at the core of any training program. However I do not think it is inhumane to use some positive punishment, and I do not mean whipping your dog into submission (as Renee has described positive punishment means adding something to decrease a behavior). When I am teaching Bogart a new trick or command, I use only +R/-P to try and shape the desired behavior. Once he has the new command or trick down, I expect him to comply, if he doesn't I may give him a correction. For example, when we go on walks, I have taught him to sit at every street before we cross it. Occasionally, he will get distracted (usually watching another dog, person, or something). It actually doesn't happen a lot because he has been really good with this, but when it does and he doesn't sit when I give the command, I will give him a slight yank on the leash to get his attention. I believe and correct me if I am wrong, but this would fall into the +P category. ??????

So I guess I don't follow the +R/-P program exactly, but I have had great success with Bogart anyway.

Renee

04-09-2005, 12:06 PM

Hee Yung Lee-

If your dog is watching other dogs and people and you are tugging on his leash - what kind of message are you sending him. He is getting a correction everytime he sees a dog or person. This is how people create leash aggression in their dogs - leash pops, leash tension, training collar selection are all factors in this equation. Why not just teach him that if he sees another dog or person that he should then "watch" you - which he should be doing anyway.

Also - if your dog is not listening to you it is most likely a problem with reinforcement schedule & gradually increasing the distraction level when training. And # of reps also...

The basic progression of Behavior and Learning is : 1. Acquisition 2. Fluency 3. Generalizing and 4. Maintaince. (I'll talk more these about this later)

The second step of Learning is Fluency - where you start to put the reward on a variable schedule and you should have at least 6000 reps before you expect the behavior to generalize. Yes 6000 reps...

Learning/training doesn't easily generalize in canines. Dogs are contextual (environmental) learners - just because the sit nicely in the kitchen (on a tile floor) doesn't mean that they know to sit well in the backyard (on grass or dirt). Unfortunately, fear in canines does generalize easily. All it takes is a dog to have one fearful experience and the dog never seems to forget it (as I'm sure many of you know) The dog can be come fearful in different situations - those situations that remind the dog of the orginal fearful experince.

You are right, what works for one dog does not work for another. But that doesn't mean we go from +R to +P. It means we try a more effective +R/-P technique. This is where skill set, education, experience and creativity are a huge factor.

Hee Yung Lee

04-09-2005, 12:38 PM

Hee Yung Lee-

If your dog is watching other dogs and people and you are tugging on his leash - what kind of message are you sending him. He is getting a correction evertime he sees a dog or person. This is how people create leash aggression in their dogs. Why not just teach him that if he sees another dog or person that he should then "watch" you - which he should be doing anyway.

Wow, I wasn't expecting such a quick response! Renee, I have to disagree with you here. I assure you he is not associating bad things with looking at other people and dogs nor is it creating any leash aggression in him. I can make this judgment because I do not tug on his leash every time he sees another dog or person, in fact, I rarely do it. It is only done to get his attention when he does not sit on command before crossing a street, which is actually very rare.

I do not disagree that a dog who is continually trained with brute force and aggression can develop serious issues. What I am saying is that the use of some +P can help with training. I guess I believe in a balanced approach. If you provide some form of +P (whether it be a slight tug on the leash, a stern NO, etc) in addition to praising lavishly when they do the correct behavior, it makes sense to me that it would provide the dog a greater understanding of what is expected and what is not. I don't know how to explain it...I guess it provides him with more learning opportunities. ??

Renee

04-09-2005, 12:50 PM

While he may not ever be leash aggressive this is indeed how leash aggression is created. Leash aggression is probably the #1 reason why people have to see a behaviorist. It is in Dr. Patricia McConnell's practice - which is booked up 3 months in advance to the tune of $85/hr - that is how much of a problem it really can be...

I'm glad to hear that you don't tug on leash very much! I was a tad bit worried about that. If you taught your dog a NRM and positve directives, you would not have to yell a stern "no" at your dog. I don't have a problem with people telling their dogs "no" (I'm a believer in that dogs need structure and obedience - certainly some dogs more than others), but "no" is misused and overused (spend a little time at the dog park or other place where dogs and people congregate - you will see what I am talking about). Dogs don't always understand it (because people don't know how to teach it) and dogs also habituate to it (they way I see people use it). A No Reward Mark and the use of positive directives will usually suffice (I'll explain what those things mean later).

I understand what you are getting at when you say "balanced" approach,but my definition of balanced training has little to do with how you mix reinforcement and punishment. I have met trainers who think that being balanced means they use shock collars and clickers and treats too (these trainers didn't understand what +/-R and +/-P or learning theory - very scary since pet owners pay these people $40+hr to work with their dogs). To me being a balanced training means you have exceptional knowledge of dog learning theory, you need to understand the consequences of how you train. A balanced trainer can apply the laws of canine learning in such a way that they can get a dog to do what you want while they strengthen the human-animal bond. Balanced training doesn't mean you use +P followed by +R.

Also when I previously taked about +P, I didn't just mean brute force. The consequences that I listed above include all forms of +P - even the less forceful +P (leash tugs/pops). When you use +P you train in a lot of extraneous material and more often than not, you dig yourself into a deeper hole - again this is where education, experience and creativity come into play. In many instances +P could have been avoided all together. So, I'm not sure what you mean when you say +P allows more opportunities for learning?

PS. I'm glad to know that +R is at the core of your training.... I really love people who are regulars in this forum. No matter what methodology they choose to use, I can tell they really care for their dogs...

Renee

04-09-2005, 07:33 PM

I would also challenge people to buy and read Jean Donaldson's Culture Clash and Murray Sidman's Coercion and its Fallout - Revised Edition (this book isn't about dogs, it's about punishment) ... I think these two books are a must read for anyone interested in dogs, behavior and also punishment.

Enjoy,

Hee Yung Lee

04-10-2005, 09:43 AM

While he may not ever be leash aggressive this is indeed how leash aggression is created.

I thought leash aggression was created when the owner tenses up on the leash and holds it like that while another dog walks by, not from just quick pops or slight tugs on a leash in order to get a dog's attention. :confused:

Well, I debated whether or not I should post these articles on here only because I personally have no desire to get into a long drawn out discussion over training theories and methods, but I think in all fairness, I can post these as sources of information for anyone who should want to read about "balanced training." If you have time, I think they are very interesing and informative. Even if you do not agree with the method (while I do agree with most of it, I wouldn't say I agree with everything presented in these articles), they do provide some interesting thoughts.

This is an article written by Suzanne Clothier and I believe she is referring to the use of calming signals. Anyway, she talks about how dogs use a form of +P.
http://www.flyingdogpress.c om/pposa.html

Here is an article that discusses the debates surrounding the polarization of dog training methodologies.
http://www.dogpro.org/articles_detail.cfm? ID=8

I like this one because it is about a person's journey through dog training.
http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/LA/koutsky.htm

One more about establishing a balanced training method.
http://www.knowingdogs.com/a4_bottom.htm

I am supplying only the link because these are all copyrighted articles, so I wasn't sure if I am allowed to copy and paste them here.

These were some articles I came across while doing my own research on the balanced approach to dog training. Remember, this is just my opinion and I simply want to share the information with you. I have no idea who the authors are or what kind of training they possess.

Renee

04-10-2005, 11:49 AM

Hee-

I met Brenda Aloff last weekend (behaviorist and author of Aggression in Dogs). I attended her working canine aggression seminar in Michigan. Brenda was running a demo where she had owner and dog do dog approcahes followed by "back-aways". This one particular lady would approach with her dog, leash pop it, and would do the back-away. This probably went on 10-14 times before Brenda caught it. Everytime this poor dog approached another dog, it got a leash pop. Brenda made the lady put her leash and hand in her belt loop so she wouldn't do that anymore. All of the trainers in the audience were cringing because you could see the dog become more anxious and fearful with each approach because of the leash pops. And I will add that the owner wasn't even tugging on the leash that hard. Enough said about leash pops....

I have previously read most of those articles that you have listed. I actually know a good deal about some of the authors. As far as Suzanne Clothier is concerned she has her own ways of doing things, but I wouldn't recommend staring at your dog with "hard" eyes - ever. Especially if you are teaching your dog to focus his attention and eyes on you... Suzanne is a bit of an eccentric person. Have you read her book "Bones"? It is really great...I will actually be meeting Suzanne next month for a 3 day seminar at Wolf Park in Indiana. Though I do take her methods with a grain of salt. She takes short-cuts that I wouldn't take. She would also have no problem putting a shock collar on a dog who has recall issues. And I don't agree with that... But I do look forward to meeting her.

Also - the person from Mrs. P's sounds like she handed out too many cookies (this is the mistake so many people make) and didn't know how to use the Premack Principle, but is was a nice article... The Mary M. article is advocating kneeing a dog for jumping. Aparently she has never trained labs or goldens. I know households that have spend 2+ years kneeing their labs to no avail. It can be tramatic for some dogs and others just get more excited. Plus it's hard on your knee and you could hurt the dog. There are so many easier ways to teach a dog not to jump on you. She also rips on food training. My response to her would be lure (not bribe!), reward with primary reinforcer, phase lure, variable reinforcement schedule, vary the reinforcer and Premack Principle. She sounds like she a traditional trainer...I also didn't see any certifications or educational titles behind her name - not that necessarily matters, but I definitely see a trend...

If anyone wants more info on learning theory, let me know. I can write a few more installments. Otherwise it looks like no one really wants to talk about it, so I won't....

Alberta Hanko

04-10-2005, 07:26 PM

Hi Renee-Keep going with this. I am really interested. Linus is an example of -R training at a local obedience school, when he was 5 months old. This school was recommended by the shelter where I adopted Linus. He was a really wild puppy, no house training, or any sort of training whatsoever. He had a hard mouth, and the rare times he would interact with us we would be bleeding. We went in and the trainer had us buy choke chains as we entered. Training was done with leash pops, and squirts of lemon juice. Wild thing that Linus was he was corrected often, and if she didn't think I was doing a good enough job, she would show me how. This is how little I knew. In her favor, I do have to say that we did learn to treat them with special treats when they did something right. This was a very nice intelligent woman who did have a strong love for dogs, but felt this was the way to train. And most of the dogs did behave better after a couple of leash pops or a squirt. During this time a large adult dog kept going at Linus, who was a dopey out of control, but friendly puppy. The trainer had me doing leash pops, and squirts with lemon juice. The last night there the older dog came in late, and Linus went completely beserk when he saw him. And then did the same when a puppy he had liked came in. He also redirected at me while he was hysterical and bit me--although he never did go through my skin. This is how much this poor dog didn't trust me.This is how much this poor dog didn't trust me. You know what I have now, almost three years later, a fear aggressive dog, who goes for other dogs, men and noisy kids. Poor guy. Believe me it took no time to create this problem with my stupidity and leash pops.

I now work with him only with +R and -P, and we have come miles. He does trust me--does not redirect at me any longer, even when we are surprised by another dog, although he will still lunge. Although I believe some of his problems are genetic (he's Shiba Inu/Chow --and who knows what else), and definitely a lack of socialization before I adopted him, if I had made more intelligent choices for him, I think his problems would not be so severe. I am not saying that every dog reacts as Linus did, many take the leash pops, knees in the chest without reacting outwardly.

I have recently had the misfortune of witnessing three people with their dogs, 2 doing leash pops. One was in front of a grocery store, a beautiful German Shepherd. The owner was forcing it into a sit, the dog would stand, watching people coming out of the store, and the owner would hollar "sit" and yank up on the leash, while pushing its rear down--the dog was terrified. The other is a friend who has a lovely hyper mixed breed. They are trying to keep her from jumping and when she does, they do a strong leash pop, and she drops to the ground in fear. The third dog who was being trained entirely with -R & +P by owners who felt they were doing the right thing--they loved the dog but felt he was "stubborn" and wanted him well behaved--finally ran away.

I realize there are many dogs who do fine and have loving relationships with their owners even if they do employ some -R training. I did use a choke collar on my last dog--my camping and hiking companion--and only stopped because he pulled so much I was afraid he would drag me down a mountain. I then switched to a shoulder harness, and that solved the problem, he would not pull with that. He never was aggressive to people or dogs, but now I feel I was lucky with him. Linus has taught me a lot.

Your explanations are great--I have to reread them again, but I'll be interested to see what replies others have.

Alberta & Linus

Renee

04-10-2005, 10:00 PM

Alberta - don't be so hard on yourself about Linus. Life is a learning experience. Dog behavior isn't intuitive and dogs don't come with a manual. People just try to do the best they can and that's all we can ask for.

I'm pretty busy right now, but I'll try to do another installment of Learning Theory either sometime this week or this weekend. I'm glad people are interested in this. Training dogs becomes easier once we understand how they learn....

Tracey Wilson

04-11-2005, 11:24 AM

I am a little confused. Even in our "positive only" training class we are told to say "NO" if the dog mouths or does certain inappropriate behaviour.

is "no" off limits as well? I guess I am wondering how you set boundaries.

Our dog still mouths a little bit, its gotten alot less frequent. when she grabs our hand with her mouth, we say "no", then replace it with a toy and praise.

is that wrong?

Renee

04-11-2005, 02:17 PM

Tracy-

That is an excellent question. I don't have a lot of time to answer it, so I will try to write a complete explanation tomorrow. It sounds like your training school is using a No Reward Mark along with a redirection of the biting behavior. A NRM just means that you want him to give you some other behavior than the one he is doing and is usually spoken in a fairly neutral tone. The current behavior will earn him no reward. Tracy, you are not doing anything wrong, but I can give you a few more techniques that you can use with puppy biting. I'm off to work, so I'll try to get back to you later or Melissa B could definitely jump in here also..

Later,

Mario Niepel

04-11-2005, 02:26 PM

Tracey, there is nothing wrong about using the word "no" as a marker for undesired behavior. It all depends on what your teaching strategy is. I do know that for some dogs a stern "NO" or "Bad Dog" can actually be quite a strong punisher. I have seen dogs cringe, cower and offer appeasement behavior after the use of such words. However, other dogs don't react at all to the word "no".

I guess the point is this: what do you want to achieve and what can you achieve with the word "no". Is it there to tell the dog that whatever it is doing at the moment is wrong? Is it supposed to be a mild punisher? Are you using it to get the dogs attention? Is it working well for you?

Currently I find that I don't need to use a mild punisher in training. I use a non-reward marker during clicker training to let the dog know that what he is doing at the moment will not result in a reward at the moment. In all other occassions I either ignore undesired behavior or physically remove the dog from the situation. However, when Sammy was a puppy, I often used the word "no" to disrupt a behavior and then redirect to a desired behavior. Since there are hardly any times when I can actually observe undesired behavior, I currently don't have a use for the word "NO".

I hope these musings were not too confusing.

Chris Smith

04-11-2005, 03:01 PM

Renee,

Thank you for starting this thread and submitting so much information about training. This is very informative and very valuable information for me (and my dog)!

It is great to have all of this explained in such detail and with examples for someone who is new to dog training and wanting to do the best for their dog.

I look forward to more!!

Chris

Grace Erick

04-12-2005, 01:19 PM

I was at this one dog site where the woman sprayed her dog in the face with water to make him stop barking. It was a chihuahua. I'm no expert, but I would never do that. How horrible. I said so and a huge argument ensued.

She said she did it all the time and it worked, so I said if you have to keep doing it, it isn't working. I could never spray water in my dog's face!!! I posted this here since you are talking about positive reinforcement as opposed to negative reinforcement.

I taught my boyfriend's chi to stop barking by calling her and talking in hushed tones without resorting to yelling or upsetting the dog.

Jill Ramsey

04-12-2005, 01:23 PM

I spray Finn in the face, but he loves it!!! :rofl: So, it wouldn't work for him anyway!!

Renee

04-12-2005, 02:20 PM

Hey Grace-

It's my personal philosophy to not spray anything in a dog's face - unless they love it and think its a game. I think this technique is generally ineffective and some dogs are frightened by this. Some +R trainers use this technique (but they don't use it very often) and many +R trainers will not use this type of technique.

You hit the nail on the head - if this lady had to keep spraying her dog in the face everytime it barked, then it did not work because the dog still continues to bark. This is an ineffective use of punishment. I'd also imagine that she is doing nothing to reward the dog's silence, so the barking continues. I would have to suggest to this lady that she could put "speak" and "quiet" on cue - its like putting an on/off switch in your dog. Clicker training can be very helpful with this particular task. I would also teach a "watch" to take away the visual component - assuming that the dog is barking at something.

I'd be very interested to hear how you guys taught your dogs "speak" and "quiet"....

Also - I'll try to start a thread about no reward marks, how people overuse the word "no" and the use of positive directives tomorrow... Clicker training is not my strong suit. My dog is sound sensitive and it took me a few weeks just to get her used to a very quiet electronic clicker. Is there anyone in here that knows a lot about clicker training and would be interested in doing a small write-up on it? Mario - you sound like you do a little clicker training. Is this something that would interest you?
.

Mario Niepel

04-12-2005, 02:59 PM

Renee, I would love to write up a paragraph or two about the (little) experience I have with clicker training.

Unfortunately, I am in the midst of graduating (my defense talk is in less than 10 days) so I only come to the board to procrastinate a little. So any write up would have to wait until the end of the month. :) Of course I would be very interested in reading other peoples opinions on and experiences with clicker training.

Grace Erick

04-12-2005, 08:09 PM

The only one in my house that likes a spraying is my parrot, and when I say "shower", he moves towards me to get sprayed, even if I don't have the sprayer in my hand where it's visible since I have always said "shower" every time I sprayed him, which is something they love.

Then I say broccoli to him, and he knows what he is getting and the dog does too, because she will be in our bedroom in her bed and the bird is on his perch in the livingroom and when I say broccoli and give him a piece, she comes running. She waits for him to drop his broccoli, but I started giving her a tiny piece since I didn't want her going into his poop papers. I don't even think it's very digestible, but she only eats a tiny bit and seems to be fine afterwards.

Renee, even if spraying a dog in the face was a good technique, I could not bring myself to do that to my dog. She would be so upset with me too. Chis are emotional dogs.

Now this is going back 20 years to when my boyfriend brought home a chihuahua to our apt. where we couldn't have dogs. I knew nothing about the breed or dogs. All I knew is she better stop barking. She was pretty quiet, except for when the neighbor directly next to us came in. As I recall, I just talked to her in hushed tones, just speaking low and calling her. What that did was turn her bark into a low growl that was not as perceptable to people in other apts. So she started doing a low growl instead of barking. I had no idea what I was doing, but I just know if you are aggressive with someone, you will get aggression back and just get her more excited and worked up, so I figured I would not actually disapline her and just talk her down. It worked!

Thank goodness my chihuahua does nothing wrong, because I would be so bad with discipline. The only time I tell her no is when she goes to sniff some other dog's poop while we are out and all I have to say is no in a low tone, and she comes running. She knows poop sniffing is not allowed, but also, she will not get in trouble for it, because she's just being a dog.

Grace Erick

04-12-2005, 08:20 PM

No doubt many of you may have seen this joke already that is circulating around the internet. It has to do with dog behavior, so I thought it would be good to post here and it proves there is truth in jest.

Subject: Why dogs get mad at humans!

Top 10 Dog peeves about humans

1. Blaming your farts on me... not funny... not funny at all!

2. Yelling at me for barking.. I'M A FRIGGIN' DOG, YOU IDIOT!

3. Taking me for a walk, then not letting me check stuff out. Exactly
whose
walk is this anyway?

4. Any trick that involves balancing food on my nose... stop it!

5. Any haircut that involves bows or ribbons. Now you know why we
chew your stuff up when you're not home.

6. The sleight of hand, fake fetch throw. You fooled a dog!
Whooo-Hooo what a proud moment for the top of the food chain.

7. Taking me to the vet for "the big snip", then acting surprised
when I freak out every time we go back!

8. Getting upset when I sniff the crotches of your guests. Sorry, but I
haven't quite mastered that handshake thing yet.

9. Dog sweaters. Hello?? Haven't you noticed the fur?

10. How you act disgusted when I lick myself. Look, we both know the
truth, you're just jealous.

This joke kind of follows my attitude of letting an animal be themselves as long as they are not hurting anyone or themselves. I am proud to say in 11 years of owning an African Gray Parrot, he only removed (ruined) two zippers off of jackets when I did not put him back on his perch right away and he jumped onto the couch where the jackets were, which was my fault.

I do believe you can set a pet up for failure by things that you do, and not by things that they do. That's the motto I live by.

Marsha

04-12-2005, 08:47 PM

As for spraying animals in the face, I had been told a few years ago that you could teach a cat not to get on the kitchen counters by spraying them with water since they generally don't like to get wet. Well, I decided to give it a try with one of our cats (the other one doesn't get on the kitchen counters for some reason). This cat is extremely loving and social....a very people-oriented cat. He did NOT like getting sprayed, but it didn't seem to dawn on him that we were trying to keep him off the countertops. He would jump on the counter, we would get the spray bottle of water, and he would squint his eyes waiting on the squirt rather than jumping off. It was as if he was saying "I hate this game, but, since you like it, I'll play along." We laughed so hard, but we quit spraying him. It wasn't getting the response we wanted anyway. (He also started squinting when I would pick up a spray bottle with cleanser in it anywhere close to him!!)

Krista Winegardener

04-12-2005, 10:16 PM

A trainer once told me to spray my little puppy in the mouth with Bitter Apple whenever she nipped at me.That seemed like a horrible thing to do to a playful pup.At the time I just thought,no way,won't be trying that,but it is hard to rely on your own judgment as a first time dog owner when 'experts' are advising you.This incident made me decide to first watch what was happening in the training classes at the store where I encountered the Bitter Apple lady.I had planned to simply enroll my puppy in kindergarten there,thinking this would be the best thing I could do for both of us.

I had actually wanted to start a thread about this training class but I'm having a problem starting threads and can only post replies!

Already,this thread has reminded me I still have alot to learn but reassured me that I was right to trust my instincts that something about those classes just wasn't right.I ended up training my puppy myself,using rewards and mostly telling/showing her what I wanted her to do and redirecting.And getting great advice from DoggieDoor when I wasn't sure how to proceed! Thankfully,Misha has turned out to be a happy and trusting dog.

Anyway,my question about the methods used in the training class is:What exactly are they trying to achieve??? It seems to me that they are producing confused,fearful dogs,but tell me if I'm wrong.

What they do is,once the dogs have learned the basics of sit/stay,etc,they then take them walking around the store while constantly telling the dogs to 'leave it'.They don't use chokers,they use Gentle Leaders instead.The onwers are asked to put the dog in a sit/stay in the store and then to keep the dog there while other people/dogs walk by.I've seen owners jerking up on the lead to keep the dog in a sit.I've never seen a trainer tell them not to do that.When the owners progress to walking the dogs in the store,most of them kind of drag the dog along while telling it repeatedly to 'leave it'.Don't sniff the floor-leave it.Don't approach a person-leave it.Don't sniff another dog-leave it.

Wouldn't it be better to tell the dog to 'walk on' or something like that instead of using this generalized 'leave it'? How is the dog supposed to learn how to politely greet a human? How to safely greet another dog? Is the aim to have a dog that walks like a zombie through the world,ignoring everything like a horse with blinders on?

And doesn't jerking the dog's head up as another dog approaches put the dog into a seemingly aggressive stance (to another dog?)

I'd really like to know if this kind of class actually benefits dog and owner.It just seems sad to me and disturbs me every time we're in this store during these training sessions.

Renee

04-13-2005, 01:55 AM

Mario-

Good luck on your thesis defense! That would be great if you could do a write up on clicker training - what it is, what it isn't, how to begin, how and when we use it, when we shouldn't use it etc. Whatever you can contribute would be great and we can work from there!

Renee

04-13-2005, 02:16 AM

Krista-

Way to go with your gut instinct! Bitter Apple spray contains Isopropyl Alcohol (IPA) which is a poison and toxin. I think it is highly inappropriate/dangerous for anyone to be using bitter apple spray in this manner. If you could, find another training class. The one you are describing sounds terrible. What a poor way to teach "leave it". Then to repeatedly use the word "leave it"(desentization) after they did a crappy job of teaching it in the first place. Yes, they should be teaching a "watch" in those situations - then we can even put "greeting" on cue. We want our dogs to defer to us when it comes to approaching humans/dogs/distractions. That way we can tell them if it is ok to greet or not...

If you want to do some training on your own, I can recommend a few books to help you on your way - if you want.

Melissa Brunoehler

04-13-2005, 06:57 AM

Hi Grace~

Squirt bottles & shake cans rarely if ever stop undesired behavior(s) permanently. Part of the reason is because punishments should be on a continuous schedule of punishment. (the opposite is true for reinforces, which should be on a variable reinforcement schedule). It is highly unlikely that a person is going to have the squirt bottle or shake can on them 24/7. & I would guess that the dog probably wasn’t rewarded for nice, quiet behavior?
They (shake cans& squirt bottles) can also make the dog scared of the person doing the squirting/shaking or fearful in general.

I was at this one dog site where the woman sprayed her dog in the face with water to make him stop barking. It was a chihuahua. I'm no expert, but I would never do that. How horrible. I said so and a huge argument ensued.

She said she did it all the time and it worked, so I said if you have to keep doing it, it isn't working. I could never spray water in my dog's face!!! I posted this here since you are talking about positive reinforcement as opposed to negative reinforcement.

I taught my boyfriend's chi to stop barking by calling her and talking in hushed tones without resorting to yelling or upsetting the dog.

Grace Erick

04-13-2005, 12:37 PM

Melissa, this squirt bottle person asked if I showed my dog, because she did and it meant to her that she was more knowledgable. I chose not to show my dog, because I wasn't interested in it and it has nothing to do with your level of knowledge except maybe when it comes to showing dogs.

I'm telling you, my dog would be so hurt, and she would feel so upset if I did a negative thing to her. She knows nothing but happiness. I felt upset for the poor dogs that this woman was spraying.

Like kids, dogs can be very smart and I think you have to use psychology on them to motivate them or change behavior.

Jody Hayes

04-13-2005, 01:01 PM

Renee you mentioned that you have titles of a few books for Krista on training her dog herself...I would be interested in them. I have been training my beagle, due to low funds. He is doing well. I took him only about 3 trys to get the Stay command! I was really impressed. He is a quick learner, but only if I teach him correctly I am assuming. I do use only positive reinforcement, so no worries there. I don't really use "no" a lot of "off" commands. He is a jumper and that is on people, cupboards, etc...I have been practicing the NILIF program also. It has been very helpful.

Chris Smith

04-13-2005, 01:54 PM

I am also very interested in the training books - especially if they use the +R/-P type of training. I am working with Nalu (8 months old) and he's been through one round of puppy obedience classes. I would like to do more classes but they are expensive so if there are good books, I would like to try working with him on my own. His weak areas right now are pulling on a leash and jumping up at people when they greet him. Thanks.

Alberta Hanko

04-13-2005, 07:59 PM

"I had actually wanted to start a thread about this training class but I'm having a problem starting threads and can only post replies!"

Krista - I was having the same problem, until somene else on here said they could not start threads from AOL, which is my IP--I then got to DB through internet explorer and can start threads that way.

Alberta & Linus

Krista Winegardener

04-13-2005, 10:46 PM

Alberta-thanks for the tip...I'm also on AOL,so will see what I can do to access Internet Explorer.

I think it would be great to have a list of GOOD dog/puppy training books to refer to,as many people here might not be able to find decent training classes nearby.I relied alot on Jean Donaldson's 'The Culture Clash' to guide me in my efforts and although it's not a typical step by step training manual,I still think it's an excellent resource for anyone starting out with a new puppy or adopted dog.

If it wasn't for forums like this one and Doggie Door,I would have stumbled upon some of the rather bad training info that's still all over the Internet.I've even seen Alpha roll articles on dog rescue sites!

Renee,thanks for the offer of reading material for guidance.I continue to try to learn and take in as much as I can about how dogs learn and behave.It's been fun,actually,to have to use my imagination and grow with my dog.I'm not versed in all the technicalities of learning theory but having a basic knowledge of positive methods has made all the difference.Misha is pretty good now at everything I wanted her to learn,and when we do have any glitches,they do tend to resolve because she knows to defer to me.Not that we might not have any challenges in the future,but we have established a foundation of trust and I'm confident any problems can be worked out.

Like Renee said,it's also important to be creative.Misha is really good at not eating junk off the ground by now and I was mystified when she took to eating goose poop over the winter.Nothing I had done before worked to get her to stop.I began to wonder if it wasn't so much a training issue as a simple,strong desire to eat goose poop because it had something in it that she really wanted.Recently,I read a description of Green Tripe and it sounded like goose poop in a can,so I tried giving her some as a treat before going for walks in places where we encountered goose droppings.The smelly Green Tripe seemed to satisfy her craving for goose poop and she no longer ate goose droppings on walks.Now,Green Tripe is part of our pre-walk routine.Maybe that is spoiling and catering to my dog,but it's worth it not to have to worry she's eating polluted goose poop or tearing my hair out wondering why she refuses to listen to me.I guess that's my way of saying that there's a time to be flexible and not obsess so much on obedience.I guess part of owning a dog is learning how to tell the difference between what is a training issue and what is something your dog is trying to tell you about her needs.It's not easy,is it,but dogs really do communicate rather well with us,via body language.

Oops-that sounded a bit arrogant.Sorry,not my intention.I really would appreciate recommendations for further reading! I still have much to learn and every little good tip helps...

Grace Erick

04-15-2005, 02:30 AM

Did anyone see my behavior joke on the second page?

I don't know anything about behavior training, but I do have a smart dog and a very smart African Gray Parrot, and I think a lot has to do with using psychology and working with the animals nature and ways and not trying to make them something that they aren't.

I give my parrot a lot of room to roam, but as I've said, I don't set him up for failure by putting things near him that he can ruin. I think people ruin their dogs or pets. They certainly don't come that way in most cases.

Daniela Jantzen

04-15-2005, 05:46 AM

I don't know anything about behavior training, but I do have a smart dog and a very smart African Gray Parrot, and I think a lot has to do with using psychology and working with the animals nature and ways and not trying to make them something that they aren't.

I give my parrot a lot of room to roam, but as I've said, I don't set him up for failure by putting things near him that he can ruin....

Are you sure you don't know anything about behaviour training...?
Sure sounds as if you are a pro! ;)

The problem with the use of punishment in training: it only surpresses a behaviour for a short amount of time - but doesn't do anything for extinction. In order to get an animal to act appropriately period, redirecting it into an alternative behaviour which is positively reinforced lavishly usually is the best way.
Unfortunately, when punishing a dog, its "misbehaviour" usually stops at frist, which therefore only positively reinforces the handler in return.
This can lead to the excessive use of aversive techniques as soon as the misbehaviour reoccurs (after all, punishment worked the last time as well, didn't it?).
You can imagine the consequences in the long run....
This is why it is so important to stick to the positive way (and why so many of us advocate it here).

Danny

Renee

04-16-2005, 04:06 PM

Excellent point Daniela-

Adversives are a slippery slope and they only temporarily suppress behavior. Dogs often habituate to punishment - so people have to keep increasing the punishment to get the same effect (this is one of the reasons why shock collars have more than one setting - these things disgust me).

I see far too many people telling their dogs what not to do, instead of telling them what to do. Replacing a undesirable behavior with a desirable behavior is more effective in the long run and there is no fallout involved either. Once the desired behavior is heavily reinforced, it becomes the "default" behavior - problem solved.

Grace Erick

04-16-2005, 07:19 PM

My chihuahua would stop to smell poop when we walked in parks. I always keep a low tone with her, so if I raise my voice slightly, it means something to her, along with a gentle pull on her harness has taught her that when she stops to smell other dogs poop, I just say "no" in a low tone and she moves on now without pulling on the harness. She knows she gets a quick wiff and she has to move on. If I see her sniffing around in grass, I know she is seeking out a poop that is not apparant yet, and the slightly raised tone and word "no" makes her move on again.

Maybe if you have a bigger more aggressive dog the situation may be different, but I think my dog would be scared to death if I yelled at her.

Renee

04-16-2005, 07:48 PM

Grace-

I too like to use quiet tones with my dog. When I go to the dog park I see so many people shouting at their dogs - it is so ridiculous. It is borderline comical/embarrassing/sad.... Their dogs have habituated to all the shouting and don't really even pay attention to their owners. Then, when the dogs don't respond the people shout louder. I usually just have to walk away because it makes me cringe.

Grace Erick

04-17-2005, 01:13 PM

Renee, I guess my being raised with a strong arm so to speak made me want to be more mellow with my attitude and how I raised my dog. All the behavior you mentioned that dogs will do if you treat them negatively are things I have done as a child and teen to deal with my parents being a little too strong with me. I was non responsive to strong punishment as it becomes more a part of my daily life and not a learning experience.

Daniela Jantzen

04-18-2005, 04:23 AM

Maybe if you have a bigger more aggressive dog the situation may be different....
Careful there!
Although I understand where you are coming from, thoughts like that can lead to tremendous problems when dealing with a large and sensitive breed such as a Rottweiler, a Ridgeback or a greyhound (or other breeds, you name it). Many so called aggressive dogs simply act and are insecure which is often misinterpreted (after all, who would think of such a big animal as insecure?).
If you handle them according to such a misinterpretation, things can go awry way too quickly.....
Or, in other words: aggressiveness is not equal to aggressiveness. If you handle the wrong type of aggressioon with force, you are building your own time bomb....
So even with aggressive dogs, positive reinforcement often works best. There are limits, of course, but only a few.

Danny

Grace Erick

04-18-2005, 02:06 PM

Daniela, I'm not suggesting that someone not use positive reinforcement with a bigger dog. Chihuahuas can be very sensitive to a louder voice, not to say that some bigger dogs may not be the same, but with chis, they are very sensitive dogs and tend to be......I don't know how to put it, on the scared side to begin with. I'm not sure if scared is the right word. For instance, if I'm walking my dog and reach the car and I go to pick her up, she will crouch down like you are going to hit her, and I see this in the show ring also when they pick up their dogs.

I don't believe in anyway that bigger dogs should be treated harshly due to their size. I hope I wasn't misunderstood.

I took care of and rode horses all my life, and I also believe with horses, their treatment should not be reflected by their size, because they respond better to more sensitive treatment.