At an Absolute Loss-Please Help Us!!

[Susan Bacon]

I really mean it. I am at my wit's end on this. This morning we had another clean crate after 8 hours of sleep (we'd gone outside to pee many many many times before bedtime). I thought maybe this would be the start of a new dawning, with me at the helm, making sure he has ample peeing opps all day, every day. Also, Panda no longer has the wire grate, but a nice soft towel bed in a small section of his crate, which I had so hoped would change his tactile desire to go in there.

Panda and Beans and I took a 15 minute walk because I knew Panda would have to go in the crate for a few minutes while I took a shower. I prayed for a pee on the walk, knowing my timing for a quick shower would have to be good. Lo and behold after we returned from the walk (no pees), my husband asked me to help him outside with the sprinkler system. I reluctantly said yes (six weeks of housetraining has put a little strain on our marriage and I knew I had no choice but to be cheerful) and put Panda in the crate. Ten minutes later we came back in and the crate was still clean. Great!!

I hopped in the shower. In about 3 minutes I heard the awful, loud howling Panda makes whenever he has peed in his crate. $#*!

You guessed it. The walks, the prodding, the go-potties, the rewards, the +R, the every-two-hours-without-fail, the constant modifications to his crate and washing of towels, the multiple bottles of Nature's Miracle for 6 weeks straight all day, every day, has left me nothing but dripping wet half-naked outside in a backyard with a puppy who continues to go--even in his bed--whenever he feels the urge. We love this little guy, and at this point we are so clueless as to what needs to happen next. Can anyone please help us????

[heathea]

Hey Susan, any chance your doctor will give you a script for some valium? I feel that should be included in a potty training kit. :)
We've all been there, and it sucks.
I had a female puppy and she eventually learned. My friends (who have many, many small dogs) have had males who have refused to stop marking and they use these...
http://www.dog-breeds.net/dog_diaper_belly_ban d.htm
however, they are not the final answer for housetraining. How old is your baby? Have you spent time just going outside with a potty command? Mine is 'hurry up, go potty' and my dogs know that means hurry up and we are just out here to pee. Maybe it will work better if you take him out by himself without the other dog until the pottying happens.
I know it is frustrating and I am sorry you have to go through this. Hopefully someone else will have better advice for you.
Take care,
Heather

[Patti Ramsour]

I know exactly what you feel like! It took me almost a year to get Maggie trained although she has never peed in crate at nite or laundry room we used to keep her in during the day. But the dining room seemed to be the place to go! She could be outside forever and come back in and the next thing I knew she was sneaking off to "her" room. Its a VERY hard and trying time...dont give up, it seems like one day it just clicks!

Patti & Maggie

[Jesse Cruz]

hi susan,
i'm so sorry its getting more and more frustrating but it will work! i agree with heather about taking him out by himself. that's what i did with bailey in the beginning, so that he didn't get distracted. i also sing him the potty song at all times as he is taken to his special spot to do his business. i'm sure people think i'm crazy (including my husband) but i say over and over "good boy bailey, good boy, good boy bailey, good boy" and that is his que to do his business. immediately i shove a treat in his mouth. now as soon as he's done (after i sing his special song) he turns to me sits and licks his mouth waiting for his treat :rolleyes:

do not give up, you can do it and he will get it. patience is a virtue. i also advise that you try your best to keep him out until he does his business because chances of him having an accident are super high if you come inside without a successful pee or poop session. good luck ;)

[Amber]

I personally don't think the "How to Housetrain Your Dog in 7 Days" books and so forth do the trick. It took me about 4 or 5 months to housetrain my poodle. Every dog has it's own time span, as each dog learns at a different speed. How long did you keep the divider in Panda's crate?

[Susan Bacon]

Wow, Amber, that's for darn sure--different time spans, that is. I guess since Beans picked it up in about 10 days and hasn't had an accident since that I thought I had the "magic touch." How humbling-HA! I liked the suggestion of valium for me, though! If it took you 5 months or so, I feel better. I just wish for someplace we could put the little toot for a few minutes without the forever fear of pottying--like duh, a crate. I'd like to have some sort of life back again, but have to remember that someday this will all be worth it!?!!! THanks for your continuued support. Susan P.S. In the past 6 weeks I've kept the crate divided, except for a few days last week when I "tried" something new.

[heathea]

What did you think of the belly bands?
I've never used anything like it, but it works for some people, and you wouldn't have to clean it up other than unwrapping it and throwing it into the washing machine.

It took us a couple of months to housetrain our puppy...if you want a funny story about it, read on...

My husband and I took turns (this was when we lived in the deep country) taking Life out to potty. Whenever it was my turn the dog would watch me for a few minutes and then finally go. It always seemed to go much faster when my husband took her out to pee. It was only after about one and a half months that my husband admitted that whenever he took the puppy out to pee, he would also pee. As soon as he started doing that she picked up right away what we wanted. Wierd, funny, but true...my husband literally taught her to pee outside. :rolling:

[aussiesmum]

My husband and I took turns (this was when we lived in the deep country) taking Life out to potty. Whenever it was my turn the dog would watch me for a few minutes and then finally go. It always seemed to go much faster when my husband took her out to pee. It was only after about one and a half months that my husband admitted that whenever he took the puppy out to pee, he would also pee. As soon as he started doing that she picked up right away what we wanted. Wierd, funny, but true...my husband literally taught her to pee outside. :rolling:

Well Susan, theres your answer. time for you to "drop trou and squat" on potty breaks. Not sure how I'd feel about a dog "kiss" on my rear end though, but I'm sure you'll work it out :twisted:

Anyway, have you read potty trining 101 in the articles section? And is there a potential for a health issue (i.e. UTI)?

[Susan Bacon]

Okay Heather, I'm dyin! That is the most hilarious story I've ever heard! Lorie, I'm afraid my squattin' would fall too much in the distraction category, although I'll pitch Heather's idea to my own husband. Maybe he would volunteer to start taking the Pandaman out more often if he could get "active" in the training-HA! No sign of a UTI Lorie, just a pup who's taking his time. He really does know "go potty" and will do it on command, it's just that the d*$ crate is still fair game to him. We'll get there, I just hit a breaking point this morning and had to SCREAM it to the world! Thanks again for all your support. Belly Bands, however, Heather? Hmmmm. Well, if this keeps up much longer you may have an ultimate solution for us. But what a messy boy he'll be! We can do this..... ???? :wave:

[heathea]

Absolutely you can do this. It is just time and patience, which can be frustrating.

as a side note, the belly bands work like a diaper for boy dogs and they pull the moisture away from the dog and hold it. So, no mess and no marking on furniture, etc.

I am glad you all got a giggle from my husband, he is unique. I laughed so hard when he confessed to what he was doing, I wasn't about to start to squat, it was cold out there...but I have always said boys have it easier with the peeing standing up business.

[Marsha]

As for going in the crate....do you have anything in the crate? We found early on that Spanky would go in his crate, on the blanket or padding that we had for him, and then push it into the corner and sleep. He never wet the crate when we took the towel/blanket out. (He also wet any area rug, throw rug, aphgan, etc., that we had out). We had to put all rugs, dog beds, dog mats, etc., up in the house, too. It took awhile. When he was seeming to catch on to the idea and had gone literally WEEKS without wetting his crate and even doing well in the house, we put the padding back in his crate, and he wet it. Now that he is 10 months old, he has had padding in his crate for a couple of months with no problem. We can also put mats or a dog pillow out for him, now, too.

[Clair Taberner]

What did you think of the belly bands?
I've never used anything like it, but it works for some people, and you wouldn't have to clean it up other than unwrapping it and throwing it into the washing machine.

It took us a couple of months to housetrain our puppy...if you want a funny story about it, read on...

My husband and I took turns (this was when we lived in the deep country) taking Life out to potty. Whenever it was my turn the dog would watch me for a few minutes and then finally go. It always seemed to go much faster when my husband took her out to pee. It was only after about one and a half months that my husband admitted that whenever he took the puppy out to pee, he would also pee. As soon as he started doing that she picked up right away what we wanted. Wierd, funny, but true...my husband literally taught her to pee outside. :rolling:


wetting myself over here!:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Valerie K]

Loved the story. I am still laughing just thinking about it.

It took me almost 14 months to get my two shih tzus house-trained, and I still keep one eye on the little one when she hasn't gone in a while. We did have some health issues, and both pups tend to UTI's which don't help and set back training, but I can relate to both your frustration, and the tension in your house. We lived through it. My whole world revolved around what time I thought they would have to go outside. And I made so many potty trips a day I thought I would lose my mind. I missed accompanying my husband on a really nice business trip because they were finally catching on at that point, and I didn't want to disrupt their training and have to start over again. I learned to take the world's fastest showers and what time was the safest to run to the grocery store. Luckily, I work from home so I was here most of the day.

They also had no real qualms about peeing in their crates. Never had a poop accident, except when one was ill, but peeing didn't seem to bother them much. The only thing I can offer is that eventually, something just clicks and they get it. There is no magic method other than the common sense stuff outlined in Potty 101. There is also nothing particularly that you are doing wrong, it just takes some of them longer than others. The best thing I think you can do, is just relax about it. Accept that there will be accidents, there will be pee in the crate sometimes, you will be washing a lot of towels, (I bought a supply of cheap white ones and always used nature's miracle in the washing machine), etc. I am also rather certain that the more tense we get about it, the less likely they are to learn what it is we want them to do. I doubt it will take you nearly as long as it did me, but again, we had some serious health issues to really mess up the works.

Things that also helped me to cope were buying some inexpensive dropcloths and covering the carpet in the living room so if there were accidents, it was easier to clean up. (With two, I really couldn't tether.) We lived with baby gates for over a year to save the rest of my house. At night, because I wanted them to sleep on something soft, I put their crate pads inside a plastic garbage bag and slipped the whole thing inside two old pillow cases. That way I only had to launder the cases and wipe off the plastic rather than wash the crate pad as well. Because I found that if there was something in the crate to absorb the liquid, it was better than having it absorbed into their fur. Bathing shih tzus is no picnic. Anyhow, your pup will get it. Eventually. Maybe soon, maybe not so soon. If my girls, one with early stage kidney disease, can catch on, any dog who is loved and trained consistently will eventually catch on.

[magoo]

Susan,
I've had my Magoo for almost 6 months and we're STILL working on it! I've tried the +R and the crating and the schedules and and and! My next recourse is - next time I have a couple of days off - I'm going to wait till he starts going inside and correct him and bring him right out - he knows to go outside - he just hasn't figured out that inside is not outside! It is SOOOO frustrating I know! I'm hoping one day it will click for him - until then - I'm a slave to the mop!

[Alberta Hanko]

I'm still laughing--if only I had known what your husband did Heather, I would have suggested it to mine! Susan - when we adopted Linus we figured 5 months old, no problem, as we were loading him into the car, we were told he would need a "little work" on his housebreaking. Hah. What that meant was he viewed my LR rug as a potty mat. I was spoiled because my last dog was housebroken by 3 months. We walked for ever, as you did. I was told by the shelter that we should put it on cue and they used "go pee", and then treat. He would finally go, I would say "go pee" and treat. Once he got used to the words, I would tell him when we got out there. Also learned not to rush him back in, take a few minutes, so he would not think that peeing meant his outside fun was over! We started that, and at least he peed outside more than inside, and by 12 months he was pretty well housetrained. I do use the cue now if he goes out and I need him to relieve himself quickly, and it still works. I still need to be careful if he gets too excited--we were out one night recently came home, and didn't get him out fast enough--it was like a flood. I now know as soon we we get home, he and I go out.

Alberta & Linus

[Andre Mendizabal]

Heather, thats a hilarious story... :tup: it almost made me fall off my chair from laughing!!!
anyway, Susan... well, I think you just got a pup that's playing "hard to get"... :D So my sympathies to you, I don't know if its a male thing, but when I first got my male mini schnauzer (11 yrs ago) it took me forever to potty train him, in fact, he never completely got it!!!! but the girls, different story, they both got it within a month!!! so I just guess is different for all dogs, and there are different techniques for dogs too... for example, the crate worked well with my mini-schnauzer, she just hated going potty so near her... so she learned to hold it... but beagle liked better the "potty party" so she responded to the "potty party" and loved all the attention and treats she got from going potty in the right place!!!! :cool:
So, good luck, hang in there that this doesn't last forever, and at the end, its worth it... I was just wondering, does he goes potty only inside his crate or wherever he is inside the house?
;)

[Rebekah Hartman]

I am relating SO well to where you are right now, Susan, only mine was pooping in the crate. Actually, I'm not sure he was peeing in there as often as pooping. He was a rescue, so chalk it up to lack of early learning not to mess your bed.

We, too, tried everything and I think what worked was him maturing & taking all the bedding out. At first, he didn't care about laying in it, but after weeks & weeks of meticulous cleaning of the crate he finally decided it was nicer to be clean. Then began the pooping/peeing on the towel/blanket and kicking it out of the way. I'm leaving blankets out during the day still (probably until he's 6 months old - 3 more weeks) and sometimes putting them in at night. He seems to do okay except on the rare occasion he gets left in there for more than 6 hours because he's not old enough to hold it that long.

We had to switch foods and once he adjusted to the new food, the pooping went from 7x/day to 2-3 - that helped a lot, too. We still withhold water close to leaving times and don't give any water after 6:30 pm (he still gets me up at 3:00 am for a potty break). Another suggestion is (if you feed dry kibble) to add his water to the food. Since doing that, Samson doesn't seem to be as thirsty, but he still gets enough water. We still offer water in the bowl, but he doesn't slurp it all down in 2 seconds flat like before. I make him "ask" for water, too, he spontaneously picked up his bowl and carried it to the sink one day, so I try to get him to tell me he's thirsty that way. I only put enough water in to cover the bottom of the dish if I'll be leaving soon.

Phew, that's wordy.... You will be rewarded ten-fold for your patience! One day you just think, "When was the last time that happened?" I didn't believe I'd get there, but sure enough....

[Susan Bacon]

Thanks Rebekah, and thanks to everyone who has lent their support in the past few days. I know there will be others who will take great comfort in this thread--who will feel as desperate and alone as I do/did??? Today has been an awesome day, though! Panda felt heavy last night, but refused to poop despite the many times I took him out before bedtime. I finally gave out and gave up, put him in the bedless crate and went to bed myself. Woke up at 3 A.M. just knowing I'd have to clean the poop out this morning. But it was clean!

:razz:

Every two hours I've taken him out with his verbal cues. Not once has he refused to go! And not once has he had an accident inside today(yeh, but it ain't over til it's over, right?). This afternoon he led me to the door (we're tethered, me and the Pandaman),went outside, and he commenced to peein' in the grass without even a verbal cue. Holy moly, do I dare think he might be beginning to get it!?!!

Heather, my husband is greatly relieved because your hubby's method was next on my experiment list-HA! One day at a time, I keep telling myself. But I did want to share a little of our good news today. Thanks again to everyone. It is unbelievable how much generous support you all brought. Cheers! Susan

[heathea]

Hey, I only hope your poor husband doesn't have to start peeing in the backyard. My husband is a special special man who came up with that training program all on his own! :rolleyes:
I do love the goofball though!

[Rebekah Hartman]

That's basically how it went for us - I posted a desperate plea for help, then lo and behold, we started making progress right around the same time. There were some setbacks for sure, but when it starts to "click" it just gets easier!

[Grace Erick]

Could it be a urinary tract infection? I don't remember when my dog had one if she was able to hold it all night since your dog can do that. The reason I mention the UTI is because most dogs will not soil their bedding.

Some dogs want reeeeallly long walks before they will go, and other dogs will one day just start doing the right thing. I think there is a turning point for a dog learning and it's at about 6 months or so when it just kicks in one day and they start going where and when they are supposed to. Sometimes it can be breed related, because not every breed learns as quickly as the next.

I remember when my dog first came home and did an excited to see me pee, and I was soooo glad my hubby did not see it and wonder if she would always be like that, but it was her first and last time. It is very stressful when your dog is not housetrained and so frustrating. Hang in there!

[Amber]

YAY SUSAN!! Have you had any more good days?? I hope Panda's getting the hang of it now. I know the relief I felt when I would wake up in the mornings to a clean crate.

[Renee]

Magoo -

I would just like to point out that dogs are not cognitively capable of spite. Dogs are not do not have morals or ethics like we do. If your dog is still going to the bathroom inside the house, it is because he doesn't understand - not because "he knows better". If your start using corrections when your dog goes to the bathroom inside - you will prolong your potty training or your dog might never become potty trained. Your dog will go potty in your absence because you taugh him that he gets a correction in you presence. You can interupt your dog (not scare him!) from peeing inside and then take him outside to finish....

[Susan Bacon]

Amber, Thanks! And hooray for Panda for clean crates the past 5 mornings. No pee & no poop upon waking, which is a beautiful beautiful thing. Typical day for us though: We had a special church thing yesterday afternoon and had to be gone from 4-6:30. I had naps, playtimes, and feeding times scheduled around this event all day long and stayed home all day just to make sure it all clicked. "We" peed every hour and from 2:30 until departure time Panda peed no less than 5 times, but no poop. The only thing I didn't try was taking him on a long walk, but I was all dressed up and it was really windy.

Yep, you can imagine what I was greeted to! A nice pile and a stinky puppy upon return! I'm going to undivide his crate again so he at least doesn't have to lie in his stuff. Poor Baby!

Grace, I'm also going to pray he does have a UTI and take in a sample this morning for testing. Thanks for all of the continued support, you all. This forum has been a real godsend for me in keeping my patience and sanity!

Update--I didn't actually mean I wanted him to have an infection--but an "easy" antibiotic fix would have been nice. The great long-term news is that Panda is fine! No kidney or bladder infections and no diabetes. Renee B has reassured me that 18 weeks of age is still quite young for most puppies and to keep up the diligent patient childrearing!

Cheers,
Susan

[Susan Medlin]

Susan,
How's the potty training coming along?

[Susan Bacon]

Susan, you are amazing to keep inquiring about our progress. We have definitely turned a corner in that the boys were kept in a kennel all last week while we went on vacation. (And it was definitely a glorious vacation for me--after being held captive in my own home by my Panda for seven weeks straight, I can now fully appreciate the reasons why moms have Mother's Day Out's )!!!

Anyway, we came back expecting to use Heather's suggestion of Belly Bands that I'd ordered in advance, and I was ready and refreshed enough to start over if I had to, since Panda could poop and pee all over the place at the kennel for a week and had likely forgotten everything we'd been working so hard on. But.....

The little guy is doing sooo great! Yes, we've had 4 accidents since we picked him up Friday afternoon, but guess where they've all been? At the back door where he goes out--HA! We're now working fervently on bell ringing. Since his muscular development still obviously isn't complete, I often have to get there FAST! I'm so close behind him I've been able to catch him in the act and whisk him outside, but when my husband is in charge of watching it's a different story ;). He'll be at 20 weeks this Friday, so when he has those occasional sudden urges and I look away for a minute and he's gone, I can pretty much bet I'll be getting out the Nature's Miracle. Ah well, it's tiled there so I'm pretty pleased. He is starting to know the difference between inside and out, which was why I was such a sad and desperate momma when I made my first post and he was still messing in his crate daily.

He only goes in his crate when we leave the house now or taking a supervised nap--and I've been good about making sure he's empty each time. He's getting pretty big, so I unsectioned the crate and took out the wire grate. He now has a fleece bed in there, which he likes to sleep on, and so far the crate pee and poop hasn't occurred again--not that I will trust him for a very long time. So that is the L-O-N-G version of my answer to your quick question. This forum has sure saved my sanity over a very challenging housebreaking situation. Those of you reading this thread who are in agony of your own, please take heart: It ain't over yet, but if Panda can finally "get it" as he's starting to, then there's hope for any dog!
Cheers and thanks again for checking up on us!
Susan

[Jill Ramsey]

Yeah!! for Panda. :bunny:

[Valerie K]

So glad you had a good vacation and a chance to relax. Sounds like Panda is really starting to catch on. If you wrap the fleece bed in a sheet or slip it into a pillow case if it fits, it will be less to wash if there is an accident in the crate. Just make sure if using a sheet, to tuck the ends firmly under the bed as the edges make a tempting chew toy. It will keep getting easier (with the occasional step backwards of course).

[Amber]

Are you still tethering him to you like you were before you left? Just wondering. I'm glad he is starting to get it! I'm still in the process of teaching Precious how to go potty outside instead of inside on pee pads, like she did as a puppy, so I may start doing this to her in the near future. She finds it necessary to leave me "presents" at least once a day under one of the end tables in the living room!

[Susan Bacon]

Thanks to all of you for the encouragement! As always in this forum, I get a strong sense of teamwork and it's so great to connect with folks who've been there or are going through similar stuff. Wow!

Valerie, thanks for the tips on wrapping the fleece in a sheet. I've finally got the boys sleeping together at night in a large crate with a memory foam mattress made to fit it (fleece on top--spoiled!?!!). I have got to get to Walmart today to get a waterproof mattress pad to protect it--thanks for reminding me! I hate to sew and will have to cut one down, so I've been putting it off-HA!

Amber, I really feel for you and others who work all day and still have to get the housetraining transitioned in the evenings. I don't know if having Panda tethered to me helped him, but it certainly gave me peace of mind since he didn't have full run of the house and I couldn't trust him in his crate. Have you tried moving the wee wee pads closer and closer to the door each day? That's something a friend of mine did to condition her dog to gravitate toward the back door..... No, I don't tether Panda anymore, but keep a close eye on the clock to let him out for his routine pees. I do, however, continue to leash him when we get outside because he is so easily distracted by his brother, birds, a leaf, etc. and forgets what he's there to do!
Hope that helps,
Susan