Choke Collars on a Shih Tzu?

[Susan Bacon]

I've been interviewing trainers and two of the ones who come highly recommended have told me they use choke collars in order to train. This raises a big red flag for me with my Shih Tzus. Has anyone done training with this breed using a choke collar and what are your thoughts? Thanks!

[Amber]

I have a Peekapoo/Shih-Tzu (my avatar), and my friend, who is also a trainer, suggested I use a choke chain with her. Sally doesn't seem to mind. As long as you use it properly and you introduce it to pup so that they see what it is, I don't see the harm in it. I got major "no-no's" from people on DD for using a choke chain with Sally because she's a rescue dog with multiple issues, but she slips out of regular collars and with most harnesses, the trainer (a.k.a. YOU) don't have a lot of control over the dog. I personally don't see harm in using choke chain as long as you don't use it in an aggressive manner. Small breeds have small windpipes...if you pull too hard (and by that, I don't mean a tug), there is a chance of breaking the windpipe. At the shelter I volunteer at, the trainer uses choke chains, and we have never had an incidence of this happening though. Just be careful and you'll be okay.

[Krysta Smith]

Who were these trainers recommended by? I would never use a choke collar on Lola and I wouldn't go to a trainer who told me I should. Positive reinforcement is sooo much better for yourself and your dog. There's no reason for a dog to have to wear a choke collar, especially if you have a smaller breed, and if you have the choice of +R. I have Lola in basic obedience at Petsmart and they are wonderful there. They only use +R and in just 5 weeks it has worked wonders on many of the dogs, Lola included. And on top of the commands she also learns to listen above distractions.

[Amber]

Actually, my trainer does positive reinforcement. She just uses choke chains so they don't slip out and run away. Also, if they need a quick tug, they need a quick tug. Not all breeds can be trained the same way.

[Renee]

Then she is not a +R trainer....

All dogs can be trained with the same philosophy/methodology - its the techniques that can and will differ. But we are able to root those techniques a +R/-P philosophy and that is what we call postive reinforcement training. If a person is executing leash pops with choke chains, then they training with a -R/+P mentality - even if the leash pops are occasional and circumstantial.

The reason people train with -R/+P is because its easy and familiar - change is difficult. A little creativity, experience, and education can really open people up to training with +R/-P beacuse the dog (and human) will benefit more in the long run...

There are many more humane devices that will give you contol of your dog - sensation harnesses, gentle leaders, halti's, no-slip collars, safety pieces that connect the halter to the collar, etc. People don't set out to hurt their dogs with poor collar choices, but that doesn't mean that they are not causing harm. They don't realized it until its too late - their dog is reactive, frightened, aggressive or all the above - especially on leash. Unfortunately, choke and prong collars, leash pops and human tension on the leash play a major role in all of these types of problems. Do all dogs develop these types of problems? Absolutely not. But, do you want to take the chance that your dog will develop fear, reactivity and aggression problems knowing that there were more humane collar choices and techniques available? That's up to you...


Here are a few articles about choosing a trainer and why prongs and chokes are not a bright idea...

http://www.courteouscanine. com/findtrainer.shtml

http://www.courteouscanine. com/toptenchoke-prong.shtml

[Melissa Brunoehler]

Hey Susan~

Good for you to question the use of choke chains. People can make all sorts of excuses as to why they are necessary. I wouldn't put a choke chain or prong on my 95# GSD let alone a Shih Tzu(or any dog). I hope you can find a trainer that uses R+. Good Luck!



I've been interviewing trainers and two of the ones who come highly recommended have told me they use choke collars in order to train. This raises a big red flag for me with my Shih Tzus. Has anyone done training with this breed using a choke collar and what are your thoughts? Thanks!

[heathea]

My dogs were trained with choke chains and leash pops when we went to a trainer years ago. The trainer emphasized proper placement and usage of the choke chains. I don't know if I knew then what I know now if I would have used that trainer, however I have absolutely no complaints with how my dogs are trained. People on this site have always recommended positive reinforcement, which is definately a good way to train. I think a lot of it depends on the dog and that dogs problems.
As a person who has a friend with a problematic shihzu (who has never trained him) I applaud you for training your small dog. Train him as if he were a rottweiler, for in his mind, he/she is.
I wish you luck and it is important that you trust your trainer.
Take care,
Heather

[Clair Taberner]

i'm not totally against choke chains, but i don't know that i'd use one on such a wee dog. even if it does have little dog syndrome;)

[Susan Bacon]

Thanks Heather and Amber, for your voicing your convictions on a forum so heavily ingrained in +R. Positive reinforcement is always at the core of my training. I knew there would be some strong advocates against choke chains, but I needed to see if anyone had some positive experiences with them too. I agree with you both that the placement and proper use of them has everything to do with how successful they are. Beans has some hyper and aggressive tendencies that +R training alone has not been able to reach, so we feel strongly about going trying this at this point. I am a former schoolteacher and know that sometimes in order to teach most effectively, one must apply a variety of different methods in order to finally reach an individual. (Now if we could only train our other little one not to pee in his bed!!!!)

The trainer we like is a retired K9 trainer for the police force here. He is a kind and gentle soul who bases his training on +R methodology. He was recommended by a trusted vet and I have references of owners of small breeds that he has been successful with. It's worth it to us to try Beans with him and see if he can make a difference. Thanks for all who posted their opinions! I really appreciate your time.

[Renee]

Susan-

Please be aware that relying on physical punishers (like choke collars) and using fear and avoidance to obtain behavior is not the optimum method for changing a dog's behavior. Especially if your dog has aggressive tendancies, (I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this?) this type of collar can be disadvantageous because of the associations the dog makes (like the other dog or person approching causes pain) are not necessiarly the ones you want the dog to make (like walk nicely on the leash and behave).


Let us know how it goes...

[heathea]

Okay, just a note on aggression. If your dog is aggressive, choke chain popping can/will exacerbate the aggression. It is kind of like yelling at a barking dog, the dog feels good, now we are all barking, I will continue.

When I went to this trainer I went with friends that I was living with at the time. My friends owned a springer spaniel that was diagnosed (later) with "rage" syndrom which apparently was a type of epilepsy. This was the main reason we went to the trainer was that this dog was attacking us on a nightly basis. It was a rough time. Although the springers aggression was (apparently) medical we had (at the trainers suggestion) implemented NILIF. This was helpful at first, but the condition kept getting worse. At least the trainer we had at the time told us to never use his collar when he was showing signs of aggression.
I am sure you will not ever have this problem, and like I said, our "normal" dog responded very well to the NILIF and chain training.
I believe you are having problems with potty training as well, I am sorry things are so rough. Just out of curiosity, have you implemented NILIF (nothing in life is free) yet? I found that to be the best thing in dog training works like a miracle. Check into it.
Good Luck,
Heather

[Renee]

Just a note-

Most dogs who have aggression are considered to be normal. As Heather stated, "springer rage" is an abnormal condition generally requiring medical assistance. Abnormal dogs have neuro-chemical inbalances that affect the degree to which they can control their behavior. If your dog is having aggressive tedencies, it is most likely normal and can be addressed with management, training and behavior modification.

[heathea]

Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse the message. I was just rambling on about the reason we went to a trainer in the first place. That was probably confusing, sorry.
More Rambling:
As for the spaniel rage there was never any testing done by the vet. It was such an unfortunate series of events that lasted 6 months. The final vet we went to gave us the worst advice ever which included alpha rolling, etc. Which just made everything worse. The final decision was to give the dog back to the rescue agency with all of the information that we had received from 3 vets, etc. The owners had signed a contract that the dog would be given back if there were problems rather than being put down, which is what the vet wanted to do.
If I knew then what I know now, I would think that this was a case of a dog who did not get nearly enough exercise and probably needed some epilepsy medicine along with extensive NILIF training. But again, hindsight is 20/20...

[Renee]

Heather,

I'm sorry you had to deal with that situation. Aggression can be such a roller coster of emotion. It is sad to say that abnormal dogs with aggression problems generally have a poor prognosis. Meds are usually the first like of attack on the problem (then behavior modification too, but sometimes it has no effect). It is especially hard if you have to work with an ignorant vet who recommends alpha rolling. Did you know that vets are not required to take any animal behavior classes in their schooling - they can take a 1 credit elective on applied animal behavior if they so choose to (which many don't). This is why I think some vets give out poor behavior advice to dog owners.

[heathea]

Yeah, vet advice can be shockingly bad. Everything he told us went completely against what we had learned from the trainer, so we did what the vet said as the training stuff wasn't working and the trainer had disappeared and wasn't answering phone calls.

I have started looking at vets like I do at doctors, carefully: A vet will suggest feeding science diet; my doctor (who is not thin) suggests losing weight, I often say, you first...

A vet will often mention alpha rolls; a pediatrician will put a kid on drugs for behavior problems when it can turn out to be a simple food allergy.

We as consumers have to take everything doctors; vets; and anyone who has "authority" with a grain of salt and do our own research to make a truly informed decision. Everyone has an opinion in this world, but there is no-one who knows everything. The older I get, the more I appreciate different points of view and the wisdom that can come from viewing things from a different perspective.

Question and document everything...
Heather

[Melissa Brunoehler]

Hi Susan~

The trainer we like is a retired K9 trainer for the police force here. He is a kind and gentle soul who bases his training on +R methodology. He was recommended by a trusted vet and I have references of owners of small breeds that he has been successful with. It's worth it to us to try Beans with him and see if he can make a difference. Thanks for all who posted their opinions! I really appreciate your time

Why does this person think a choke chain is necessary? What does he hope to accomplish with the choke chain that would be impossible to accomplish with out it?

[Amber]

You're very welcome, Susan. My friend trains for the Canine Good Citzinship class at my shelter, or she did before she moved anyway. It seems everyone automatically thinks that you are yanking your dog into submission when you say you are using a choke chain. I have never once yanked on the collar when it was on Sally. She doesn't associate pain with me, like everyone on DD said she would...she associates the collar with going out somewhere because that's the only time I put it on her.

[Renee]

Amber-

Didn't you just have the problem of getting your dog to walk on a leash? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it was only a few days ago that you posted about his problem...

http://www.doggiebagonline. com/forum/showthread.php?t=339

So why is it again that you have opted for a choke chain on a fearful dog? I'm curious as to your response....

[Renee]

Heather-

You absolutely right about questioning everything...While I have a lot of respect for a person who completes the rigorous educational program to become a veterinarian, there is so much that they aren't educated on. For most vets, an one credit class on dog behavior is optional and I think that they are required take an one credit class on nutrition - that's it. Both of those subjects could easily be make into a 4 year degree on their own. I think the vets who are knowledgable on behavior and nutrition have taken it upon themselves to get educated because vet school doesn't provide the info.

[Hee Yung Lee]

I am not entirely familiar with choke chains or the prong collar, but I have met several dogs who were trained with these type of collars and they were not aggressive at all, in fact they were very well behaved. I can see how it would be dangerous to use one on an already aggressive dog, but if your dog is not then I don't see what's wrong with it.

Also I have a question about the +R training. I am all for it and it is what I concentrate on when I am training my dog, but I also believe that some sort of correction also needs to take place. I think the two should work together (although +R should take place much more frequently). I guess I just don't understand how anyone can train their dog using ONLY positive reinforcement. Maybe someone can help me out with this. Thanks.

[Renee]

Hee Yung Lee-

We use +Reinforcement with -Punishment and stay away from -R/+P. Do you understand the difference? If not I can explain it later (I gotta leave for work soon). What kind a corrections are you talking about? Define correction, I don't want us to have a disagreement over semantics.

Also, give me an example of a situation where you think a correction is necessary and I can better give you an answer explaining how to apply +R/-P to a specific situation.

Later,

[Amber]

I agree with you, Hee. I use positive reinforcement with both of my dogs, but correction is necessary. I didn't have to use the choke chain with my toy poodle, as I started training her as a puppy. Sally is an adult already though.

Renee...she is fearful of EVERYTHING...not just the leash, or collar, or outside...it's not just one thing. What is it about my reply that you don't understand? I guess you have to be in the situation to get understand what I'm doing. I already stated why I opted for a choke chain...because she can slip out of a regular collar. The choke chain stops her from slipping out and running away from me. Right now I have decided on halting everything and reading the book Help For Your Shy Dog by Deborah Wood and then picking a goal and treking on from there. I think I need to socialize her more before I do anything else.

[Renee]

Amber,

How about desentizing her to a sensation harness ...have you considered that...

I also want to comend you on taking on a "project dog"...Sally will teach you a lot about dog training and behavior mod...

[Melanie Xarti]

Peanut's been trained with only positive reinforcement. My version of only means... no yelling, physical punishment, or devices that work on a pain/discomfort principle. We've always used NILIF. Maybe we just got lucky with Peanut, because she's a real sweetheart, but there were times when she was younger and growing fast that I was afraid we might eventually need a prong collar (for exmaple) to control her pulling. Instead, we worked through it with a gentle leader, and lots of patience and positive training. Now she's almost 150lbs and I'm ok to walk her. Sure, she has her bratty moments, but those are to be expected. We're prepared to handle them.
I respect that so many people on this board and elsewhere are adamant about using only positive reinforcement methods. But I do sometimes see a need for devices like choke chains, or prong collars, and so on. My thought is that they should be used as a last resort... after positive methods and behavioral training has been tried and failed. And they should ONLY be used after proper training. Even the gentle leader should ONLY be used after proper training. Any device has the potential for harm when used incorrectly.
Let's face it... not all dogs are sweethearts all the time. Some are more independent, some are more stubborn, some are more aloof, some tolerate pain/discomfort to no end and a simple correctional tug on a leash makes them laugh at you :D .
I don't make judgments about people based on what they use for training. I don't know their situation, where the dog came from, issues, what's been tried, and so on.... I only ever hope that the dog is treated well and respected, and the person is patient and consistent.
Good luck!

[heathea]

Hey Amber, my first dog was quite shy. I mean, he is still nuts (as we affectionately call him). But before now if I were to drop a remote he ran away like a shot, if I had put my coat in the wrong place, he barked at it, and if I tripped or moved a piece of furniture--watch out! However, he is much more normal now. Sadly, I had always thought that a fearful dog needed constant affection and understanding. I was completely wrong. He needed self confidence and that I could give to him by practicing NILIF. He isn't allowed on the couch, he is forced to "face his world", he has to work for treats, he has to come when I call or if he is too freaked, he can just sit down. He is still a little skittish and he still makes me nuts by jumping out of the way like a fool when I trip over something, but he is so much better than he used to be and now, if he barks at something I will pick that thing up and dance around and play with the other dog with it, until my fearful boy joins in. Some call it desensitizing, I call it waving the laundry basket around like an idiot while hopping up and down with a human play bow. :D

I would try this technique with your baby, it works very well.

Take care,
Heather

[Melissa Brunoehler]

Hi Hee~

I guess I just don't understand how anyone can train their dog using ONLY positive reinforcement. Maybe someone can help me out with this. Thanks

I don’t think anyone uses only Positive Reinforcement. I use the following with my dogs & the dogs I work with -

Positive Reinforcement- “Something that benefits the dog & that makes the behavior to which it is attached more likely to happen again.”
Ex- dog gets his favorite toy when he lies down quietly

Management- “Manipulating the dog’s environment & circumstances”
Ex- keeping the dog in a crate so that he doesn’t chew or potty in the house.

Negative Punishment- “The removal of something in order to decrease the frequency of a behavior”.
Ex- removing your attention from a puppy when he nips you.

Does that answer your question? If not let me know & I'll go into more detail.

[Clair Taberner]

Some call it desensitizing, I call it waving the laundry basket around like an idiot while hopping up and down with a human play bow. :D




:rolling: :rofl: :rolling:

[Hee Yung Lee]

I'm not confused by the terminology, in fact, I'm familiar with operant conditioning. I was just confused by the idea of using only positive reinforcement. I apologize if I started anything-I guess I misread some comments. I thought people were literally saying that they use ONLY positive reinforcement, and I was merely seeking clarification for how anyone could train in that manner with relative speed and success.

[Renee]

No one in the world uses only positive reinforcement - its scientifically impossible. Like Melissa said, it's +R/-P... +R does not mean that we blow sunshine up a dog's arse all day, so sorry if I gave that impression... When we are talking about dog training and dog trainers assume the following:

"+R trainer" = somone who uses primarily +R/-P and no chokes/prongs

"inbetween trainers" - someone who uses primarily -R/+P followed by +R and you may or may not see chokes or prongs. Many of these people think that they are +R trainers, but they are not...

"traditional trainer" = somone who uses primarily -R/+P and you will see chokes and prongs.

Hope this helps...

[Rebekah Hartman]

I haven't read all of the responses on this, but wanted to add my two cents :twocents:

I've heard arguments on both ends about choke and prong collars, and didn't initially have a huge issue with them (if they were handles properly and work to change behavior), however, I have learned that a couple of my neighbors used them during training and continue to use them on walks and, quite frankly, they just don't seem to work. All three of the dogs (two different families) still pull on the leash, just not as much when the collar is on. All other times, forget it - they're full steam ahead. To me, this is not training its just a response to an aversive stimulus. I want the kind of dog that I can let off-leash and he's going to continually look to me to know if he's doing what I want. I don't have this dog yet, but hopefully one day....

Check out the Association of Pet Dog Trainers website - Trainer search: http://www.apdt.com/trainers-and-owners/trainer-search/trainer-search.php I've spoken with 5 different APDT trainers near us and met 2 of them to see them work the dogs. All 5 use +R, and the 2 I visited own very well-trained dogs themselves (and they were rescues with tough histories). All of the trainers were willing to let me come see a class before making any type of decision.

The dog I grew up with (a Westie) was abused by a trainer - both she and the dog ended up bleeding because of her handling of him with a choke chain. Both my sister (age 12 at the time) and the dog were traumatized and to this day, if you come too close to his neck, he will snap at you. Other than that, he's an incredible, well-mannered dog - though he never really learned a reliable "Come" because they never went back to training after that.

Moral of the story: Choose your trainer carefully. The APDT website also has some guidelines for how to know if a trainer is right for you and your dog.

[Renee]

Rebekah-

Excellent observations about the Association of Pet Dog Trainers... I think that organization is going places, but people need to remember to investigate the trainers who are APDT members. The only thing they did was pay $100 to join, so buyer beware...

[Rebekah Hartman]

I agree wholeheartedly that just the APDT letters after the name does not, in itself, indicate that the trainer is top-notch. The ones I've talked to in my area have been very helpful (one even explained what I should be looking for in a trainer and offered to help if she wasn't what I'm looking for). I liked the idea of finding a trainer that trains because they believe that the reason so many dogs are given up is lack of training (of the human and the dog).

The trainer we picked (although haven't started the class yet) donates a lot of time to work with local shelters/rescues and local police/fire departments' K-9 units. She's also already offered help with some of the behavioral "puppy" issues we've had even though we hadn't even told her if we were interested in choosing her. Meet the trainer before you decide, if possible, or ask if they'll refund your money if you are uncomfortable with anything in the first class.

[Rebekah Hartman]

I forgot to mention the National Association of Dog Obedience Instructors http://www.nadoi.org/instructors.htm - another organization you might try to find a trainer.

[Renee]

Here is a copy of what I posted in the defensive dog forum about behaviorist/trainer credentials:

The APDT is a good place to start looking for trainers, but remember the only thing those people did to get on the APDT list is pay $100 to join - so interview them thoroughly. Some of those people are Certified Pet Dog Trainers (CPDT) which means they passed an examination about dogs, learning theory, etc and have a certain amount of experience and professional references.

You can also look at the www.IAABC.org. This is the International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants. These people must have certain educational requirements (either a PhD, Masters, or other approved educational programs), recommendations and experience to become a clincal member.

The ACABN is a list of totally postive trainers and behaviorists. http://www.acabn.com/

For Veterinary Behaviorists http://www.veterinarybehavi orists.org

Animal Behaviorists http://www.animalbehavior.o rg


The main difference between behaviorist & behavior consultant is mostly education (but not necessarily). Vets generally get certified through the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists. Many people who have a PhD or Masters degrees get certified through the Animal Behavior Society. These two groups of people are true behaviorists - the Phd's, Masters and DMV's. Everyone else is a behavior consultant. Though some people with DMV's, PhD's and Masters degrees opt get certified though the IAABC or other institution and are called behavior consultants.

And of course there are some people who don't have any of these credentials, experience, or education and still call themselves a behaviorist or behavior consultant when they should maybe be calling themselves trainers. The problem is that there is no legal enforcement of the terminology. Where as if you went to see a doctor, you know (legally) he had a minimum amount of education and passed a statewide test.

No matter who you hire, make sure you thoroughly interview them. While I generally think that the more credentials, education and certifications, the better - never rely on that. The most important thing is to know what kind of methods that these people are going to use on your dog.

[Chris Smith]

Hi Melissa and Renee,

Can you explain a little more what -P is? I am new to dog training and almost everything I have learned about how to train a dog has come from this website! (which BTW has been extremely helpful). I think I use +R (as best as I understand what it is and how to do it) but I don't think I really understand what -P is or how it is used in conjunction with +R. And should they always be used together?

Thanks!

[Susan Bacon]

Rebekah and Renee,

Whew! I didn't know my simple original question would unlock such a great discussion, but I'm glad it did! Thank you so much for going into such depth and providing so many references. I checked each organization's website with a search in my city, but sadly could not find any accredited trainers or behaviorists here. Nevertheless, I'm making some calls to find out if there are any out here with experience in NILIF--just to be sure I've exhausted all resources before beginning with the trainer I've already located. Thanks again, Susan

[Rebekah Hartman]

Positive Reinforcement- “Something that benefits the dog & that makes the behavior to which it is attached more likely to happen again.”
Ex- dog gets his favorite toy when he lies down quietly

Management- “Manipulating the dog’s environment & circumstances”
Ex- keeping the dog in a crate so that he doesn’t chew or potty in the house.

Negative Punishment- “The removal of something in order to decrease the frequency of a behavior”.
Ex- removing your attention from a puppy when he nips you.

Does that answer your question? If not let me know & I'll go into more detail.

Chris, I think this explains your question.

Susan, you'll be able to find someone who uses the methods mentioned here, I'm sure. Even if you have to go the phone book route, at least you have lots of ideas of what to ask now!

[Amber]

I do have to say that, THANKS TO THIS SITE, I went to my local Books-A-Million store and read dog training books for 2 HOURS last night until I found "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Positive Dog Training" by Pamela Dennison. There were a few other books I wanted to get, but I didn't have the money to do so at the time. I also wanted to get the book "Help for your Shy Dog" by Deborah Wood, which I found on www.acabn.com, thanks to Renee! BAM, however didn't have the book on shelf, so I have to order it online. SO, NO MORE CHOKE CHAIN! YAY! I also talked to a trainer at Petsmart and she told me that I could use a regular harness with Sally right now, because she doesn't move AT ALL while on leash. She said that, if and when she does start to walk on a leash, if she's a puller then I can use a sporn harness, which is what I was questioning her about in the first place when I went into Petsmart and that just started a whole bunch of other conversations, including how I got her and her entire story!

I really think, for Sally's sake, positive reinforcement training is the way to go, especially since she's so fearful. Renee, I tried to look for the sensation harness at Petsmart and didn't see it. Is it called something else? I'm going to try her on a regular harness as she's already desensitized to that.

Heather, I try to desensitize Sally to as many things as possible, but I try not to overwhelm her at the same time. I'm not sure how fast I can go with her just yet as I'm just starting to train her. If you can give me any, and I mean ANY advice, as you have been in this situation yourself, PLEASE by all means, private message me. I will tell you her background, as much as I know of it, and all of things I know she's afraid of if you're willing to help. Not many people are or were in the same boat as me. If your dog is still scared, that book "Help For Your Scared Dog" by Deborah Wood may help you as well. I haven't read through it yet, but from just reading through the table of contents, I know I need it for Sally!

Thank you for commending me Renee. I loved this dog from the minute I stepped foot in the shelter to volunteer. I wouldn't let the owner adopt her out to anyone because I knew no one would try to get through all the issues she has. Not many people in my city are special needs dog people...anyway, it was soon after I started volunteering that I adopted Sally.

[Marsha]

I think you have to order the Sensation harness on-line. I have the Sensible harness, and it's sold by the same company....I think it's just made out of different materials. I don't remember the website, but if you google, it will give you the website (along with some other VERY questionable sounding websites.....not dog-related).

[Amber]

Thanks, Marsha. I'll try that.

[Renee]

Congrats Amber!

I'm so glad you took charge of this situation. Education and information will be key to you success - and you are well on your way! Sally is a very lucky dog.

You have to order the sensation harness through www.softouchconcepts . Else I know that premier (maker of the gentle leader) is making a similar product called the easy walk harness (www.premier.com). I'm not sure, but I'm guessing the easy-walk will be available at petstores like Petsmart. I have never tried the easy walk harness, but I do own the sensation harness and I love it. Many of the trainers and behaviorists that I have talked to prefer sensation harnesses (or similar products) over gentle leaders and halti's.

I think it was Heather Wilkes that also gave you some good advice about building confidence in your dog. NILIF is a great idea for Sally.

Keep us updated,

[Renee]

Chris Smith-

I'm going to get to your qustion, but I think I will start a new thread...it called Learning Theory.

[Renee]

Rebekah-

Also - no one should be putting APDT after their name....it's not like a Diploma or Masters degree.....they did nothing academic to earn it.

[Rebekah Hartman]

Sorry, I meant "CPDT" which, as you mentioned, means they passed an examination.

I've met plenty of people with impressive letters after their name that were less than impressive, so I don't put a whole lot of weight into any of that anyway. Talking with and meeting the trainer is the best bet to find someone that subscribes to a philosophy of training that you are comfortable with and that will work for you and your dog.

[Renee]

R-

I totally agree with you... I know many Certified Pet Dog Trainers who are great, but some are not. I haven't taken the test yet and I don't know that I will be pursuing it - frankly because I think it is meaningless (even though I am a member of the APDT)... Just because someone passed the CPDT test, doesn't mean that they are a great trainer. I think it just means that they got 70% on a pretty simple test... Though, in the future, the APDT is looking to make different levels of certification. We can only hope that they will make the tests harder and require that trainers be more knowledgable - and I totally support that...