Parvo and vaccinations?

[babyblue]

"Last thing, be careful when you do vaccinate - we think Samson may have gotten vaccinosis (unsure if it's at all related to the Parvo) - and has had 2 seizures, so we are treating with Lyssin & Thuja, which a holistic vet may recommend when he has his vaccinations just to make sure they don't overwhelm his immune system"

My dog, Chloe (5 yr old Great Dane), has Parvo and is in the vet's right now. I was wondering if the Parvo could make her react to the vaccinations like Samson (the dog talked about in the blue) did?
If so what should I be asking the vet about that wouldn't cause reactions like that?
I just got Chloe from the Humane Society so I don't know much about her history.

[Missy Stewart]

Over-vaccination can become a BIG problem. Currently, there is no scientific evidence proving that there is any benefit to yearly shots. In fact, there is building evidence that yearly vaccines are actually resulting in a lot of health problems that could be avoided. I know that I am blatently questioning the validity of what hundreds of vets nation wide promote... but check out some of these statistics!! It will be worth your time! (and this is just one out of MANY sources)

http://www.bogartsdaddy.com/bouvier/health/vaccination-concerns-uk.htm

I do not have a direct answer to your question. Yes, sometimes dogs do actually contract the disease that they have been vaccinated for shortly after being jabbed (which has been clearly demonstrated in the link above)... but the dog could have also caught the disease from its enviroment. It is hard to tell.

When I consider vaccines for my dog Sonny, I do it with extreme caution. He has been diagnosed with rabies vaccinosis... which has created a significant challenge in raising him! The night after his vaccine, Sonny's body started oozing a hot, fishy smelling oil. His skin was very HOT to the touch, and his eyes were watery. His ears smelled pungent and he began chewing at himself. He literally chewed until he had completely removed all of the fur off his back hind-quarters. His demenour transformed from innocent to aggressive and a lot of behavioral problems began developing. In rehabilitating him, I have been using a homepath (as well as a holistic vet) to get him back on track. He is doing really well now... but this has been after hundreds of dollars spent on homeopathics, vet bills, and using an all raw diet. Vaccines are NOT completely harmless... it really angers me when vets tell people otherwise. Esepcially when they are given in cocktails!!! Shocking your dogs system with 7 diseases at one time is down right dangerous!

There are some really great books that talk about the effects of over-vaccination. A lot of them argue that only few shots are needed to create a lifetime of immunity (if the vaccine is even needed at all). Don Hamilton has a good book that talks about vaccinations. It is called Homeopathic care for cats and dogs:small doses for small animals. Martin Goldstein also extensively discusses vaccines in his book The Nature of Animal Healing. I have also found the Vaccine Guide for Dogs and Cats beneficial.

Vaccines have become such an integral bread and butter part of the veterinary practice. Annual shots bring in a majority of revenue. Most vets are not honest about the dangers of abusing them.

The moral here. Do your own research (there is a ton available) and make vaccination decisions based on the needs of your own dog. There are some great options out there. There is titer testing.. which will help in determining the current immunity in your dog. There are also homeopathic nosods that are used in aiding the development of immunity.

I really am sorry to hear about your dog!!! I hope she feels better soon!
:dogrun:

[babyblue]

Thank you for this information. I think I am gonna do some more research on the subject and then make my choice. At this point my desicion will probably be to use homopathic things. Maybe if I could find a homopathic vet in my area I will switch vets. Thank you again, it was really an eye opener for me. I never knew how dangerous all those vaccines could be. :o

[Grace Erick]

There are titer tests that you can give your dog to see if they are still showing immunity to their vaccines after the first year and then some, but then I read titer tests don't really help for some reason, so I don't know how anyone can make a claim the shots are still working or not. It's all very confusing right now.

I've even read that some diseases are not even prevalent anymore, so it's another reason not to vaccinate, but I want to see some kind of study which I have yet to see by an independent source.

I read that the corona virus is not a problem anymore, yet my vet vaccinates for that, but I didn't go to him anyway for vaccines, and then bordetella has so many strains that it may not protect your dog anyway. Who are we to believe? I do know my friends dog became very ill from not getting a bordetella shot.

[Missy Stewart]

Coronoviris was once labled as the vaccine looking for a disease. There were hardly any known cases, if any, proving that the disease even existed. And yet you are right, a lot of vets still do vaccinate for it.

I have also heard a lot of negative feedback about the Lepto shot. Sonny's holistic vet talked to me about that one. It is also mentioned in a lot of the sources that I keep on hand for my own use. It basically states that there are hundreds of strains of Lepto, and that the vaccine only protects against a few of them. If you look at the study that I posted, it shows that every dog that contacted Lepto in their study, contracted it within several months of receiving the vaccination. Scary!!!

I have also heard a lot of mixed feeling about Bordatella. It is basically for kennel cough. I have personally chosen not to use it. But I know others who have. I know that the doggie day-care that I had once used required a Bordatella every 4 months. There was no way I was vaccinating that often!

If you get involved with homeopathics... they will focus much more on strengthening the dogs own immune system vs. relying solely on vaccines. I have had a lot of success with it, and find comfort in knowing that my dog's immune system is functioning optimally on its own. I have a PDF file on how vaccines work/don't work. I was just going to paste a link for you (if you were interested) but it looks like that is not going to work. Instead, I'll paste the whole document in full below ;)

[Missy Stewart]

http://k9joy.com/dogarticles/doghealth01vaccine.p df

Hopefully this will work! I coulden't post the whole article b/c of the length!

[Missy Stewart]

And here is an article on understanding and developing a stong immune system ;)

http://k9joy.com/dogarticles/doghealth01immunesys tem.pdf

[Grace Erick]

Missy, when I bought Capri, my breeder said not to give her lepto. In my doggie book, it says it's for protection against rats and rat infested things your dog may get into, but what I read said there are different strains as with bordetella, so the shot may not work anyway.

I think we read the same info on vaccines:) Lepto can cause allergic reactions, but I think many of them can and dogs get lumps at their injection sites, but I don't know if the reaction to a lepto shot can be worse.

I also read that vaccines should not be given all at once. All the vets I know give some kind of 5-1 vaccine. They are not all the same, but they are all in one shot. I have to ask my vet if he gives individual shots one day. I already vaccinated Capri a few months ago, with no corona or lepto.

[babyblue]

If you get involved with homeopathics... they will focus much more on strengthening the dogs own immune system vs. relying solely on vaccines. I have had a lot of success with it, and find comfort in knowing that my dog's immune system is functioning optimally on its own. I have a PDF file on how vaccines work/don't work. I was just going to paste a link for you (if you were interested) but it looks like that is not going to work. Instead, I'll paste the whole document in full below ;)

Thank you. The homeopathics sound very good. I really like the idea of strengthining my dogs immune system rather than relying on vaccines. I am now getting really interested in this.
Neither of the links are working for me. :(
I would be very interested in the PDF file if you can somehow find a way to get it on the post.
Thank you very much.

[Missy Stewart]

Ok... I am going to post the articles in two parts... that is the only way that they will fit within the word limit.

That is interesting what you mention about the lump developing at the site of injection. Sonny developed a large, mineralization filled lump at the site of his rabies injection. It was difficult to drain (for some reason) and painful. I was with him when they drained it... he cried like a little baby :( It was so sad. WE still occasionally have problems with the lump re-surfacing... but his homeopath is good about getting it treated.

[Missy Stewart]

This is the article on immune support:

Part 1

From the desk of Mogens Eliasen, for immediate release
This article may be reprinted without further permission
When brought in its entirety, including the bio the end.

August 25, 2004

The Immune System – how it works and how you support it

The Immune System of our dogs’ bodies is extremely complex, and very far from
easy to fully comprehend, even for the best educated scientists - nobody actually
does! However, when you understand at least the main principles of the way it
functions, you can make significantly better decisions in the overall health care for
your dog. The following guide is no attempt to be scientifically “correct”, but it will
serve you as a valid reference model for making some of the crucial decisions you
cannot leave for your vet to make…
“Law and order” for the body
The Immune System is a common denominator for a lot of processes that all work
together for the purpose of keeping the body well functioning, by spotting trouble
makers, fighting them, destroying them, and disposing of the remains of them. It
plays a role for the body that is similar to what Police does in our society. Although
all cells in the body are genetically programmed to work nicely together, they are
better at doing this when their performance actually gets controlled – and, in the
case of foreign invaders that do not respect the rules, the body’s many organs truly
appreciate help getting them eliminated, so they can continue their important work
for the body.
There are many organs that contribute specific processes to this: the liver, the
kidneys, the bone marrow, the vascular system, the lymph system, the
hypothalamus, the thyroid – just to mention a few. All of those are “the back office”
and the “volunteers”. The “police officers” on active duty are the white blood cells.
They carry weapons and can kill invaders and lawbreakers, and they are on constant
patrol.
As long as everything is fine and no criminals “on the streets”, the body functions
well, and the “police officers” do their regular patrols in peace, without being noticed
much.
But when a foreign bandit arrives in the form of a virus, a bacterium, or another
parasite that does not respect the body’s laws and the genetic code for co-operation
among all cells in the body, then the alarm bells sound!
How an immune response works
First thing for the Immune System to do when a problem is discovered is to find out
what exactly the problem is – and who causes it. The alarm will, in the first place,
only be a “911 call” from a troubled organ or part of the body.
The first thing will normally be that the body sends extra blood to the spot (more
police) and increases the temperature of the area (which makes all chemistry go
faster).
Then an investigation is done. The “police” on the “crime scene” will make notes
about what the problems are and who is causing them. This is then reported back
to “the office” – and a plan of serious action is then made, based on the collected
information. There is some time involved in this. The body needs to know what to
do – all possible forces to deploy are set in preparedness for assault, and the body
“gears up” for warfare…
When the plans are ready and confirmed by “head office”, the execution takes place.
All the necessary forces are mobilized and directed to the troubled spot – but
sometimes this will now be the entire body (virus infections often travel so fast in
the body that they are “all over the place” before anyone figures out what is going
on….).
The deployed forces will include
- “Extra armed forces” (lots of white blood cells to fight the invaders)
- Elevated temperature (helps move things faster)
- Increased production of organs that provide antibodies to neutralize the
poisons left by the invaders
- Increased activity of the liver to destroy the remains of the killed invaders and
their junk and poisonous waste products after neutralization
- Increased activity of the kidneys to dispose of the waste products from the
liver
- Increased productivity of the blood system and the lymph system to bring
things quickly from one spot to another.
The time it takes to win this battle will vary. It depends a lot on how much headtime
the infection got before the defense was effective and had all “weapons”
coordinated in the battle. It also depends on what kind of experience the forces
have with this kind of invasion. It further depends on how much support the
“combat forces” can get from the body, in the form of chemical and biological
supplies needed (“ammunition”). And it certainly also depends on the level of
training the forces have obtained prior to this….
Obtaining auto-immunity
Let’s assume that the body was successful fighting the disease, so life goes on. One
of the strongest assets the Immune System has is it ability to learn…. Now, first
time a certain disease arrives, it might take the body some time to get a defense
organized well. But the records are being kept on file. Next time the same culprit
shows up, no time is wasted on making plans for the counterattack – the old plans
are simply pulled out instantly, and the mobilization of a full-fledged defense takes
on a fraction of the time it took the first time. Most often, the invading disease
doesn’t even get a chance to disperse itself into the body – it gets destroyed at the
entrance, immediately it is recognized!
This might all go so fast that the body does not even need to mobilize all the
defenses, such as elevated temperature and other symptoms of a disease being
fought – simply because the advanced defense now is so strong and so fast that is
isn’t necessary! When this happens, we will not notice that a disease attacked the
dog – the dog has developed auto-immunity to that particular disease and will never
be bothered by it again.
Measuring titers
One of the ways an auto-immunity manifests itself is through the presence of titers.
Titers are a form of “anti-bodies”. For each disease, the Immune System develops
very specific titers, and they are generally kept on guard long after the disease is
eliminated. Just to be sure….

[Missy Stewart]

Part 2:

Titers are relatively easy to measure. You can get a blood sample drawn and have it
analyzed for titers for all the common diseases. If the titers are present, you can be
sure that your dog has developed immunity against that particular disease – and it
can never attack the dog again.
But the titers don’t stay on guard forever. Typically, in some months, they get
destroyed, and the body does not replenish them.
Until another attack is detected, that is! But then, it goes very fast. New titers are
produced again extremely quickly because all the production plans and resources
are ready – generally also so quickly that they will be deployed in the advanced
defense before the body is getting alarmed. Again, the effect will be that body will
not experience getting sick. The Immune System took care of that, based on the
experience from the first successful battle with this disease.
But this is an area where you might get fooled…. When there are no titers present
in the blood, we cannot measure that the Immune System is still prepared for a fast
and effective response to an invasion of disease! This is, however, not the same as
the dog not being protected! You just cannot measure the protection… but it is still
there.
It does not take much to get the titers back in the blood. The slightest exposure to
the disease will ring the alarm and start an instant production. All it takes is letting
your dog walk in an area where another dog has walked that was recently
vaccinated against that disease.
Training the Immune System
Just as well as the Immune System will learn to respond to one given disease, it will
also learn from one disease to the next. For every time it has been challenged, it
will improve its performance when fighting the next disease. In other words: Its
ability, in general, to fight disease get better and better, the more it fights diseases!
And the bad news: it will deteriorate to plain inefficiency and sloppiness if it never
gets any chances to train….
The consequence of this is obvious, but generally not understood: you do not protect
your dog from disease by keeping it in a sterile environment. But you protect it by
letting it get exposure to diseases, one at a time, so it can learn to fight diseases
well. Hopefully, you will have lots of chances training it first on fairly harmless
diseases. When you can do that, it will have a much greater chance of fighting
effectively also when a dangerous disease arrives.
Special rules for puppies
Puppies can, by nature, not have much experience using their Immune System. You
would expect them to be very vulnerable. But it is not as bad as you might think –
the mother takes care of that!
By sucking the mother milk, they get all the protection their mother has. The
mother milk is full of antibodies and other “goodies” that will keep the puppy very
well prepared in case of an infection! This passive protection from the mother milk
is in fact so effective that Mother Nature does not bother calling the puppy’s
Immune System to action until it is 10-12 weeks old. Till then, it plays a very
passive role, totally relying on the protection from the mother milk. But that’s also
the time when the puppy naturally will be weaned and start eating “real food”.
Beautifully coordinated, through 15 millions years of evolution….
Supporting the Immune System
Now you understand how the Immune System works, it is also very simple to see
what you need to do in order to support it:
- Feed nutritious food that contains all the ingredients that are needed for all
the body’s many processes; the only possible way of doing this is by feeding
a natural diet…
- Don’t give the Immune System unnecessary challenges through poisoning
with medication, chemicals, or foreign substances that will stress it instead of
supporting it;
- Train it well by giving it adequate challenges to develop its skills on, by
exposing the dog to a natural environment that is not sterile.
The only problem left is that some diseases are too dangerous to use for “training”.
For those, you would like to consider vaccination. But please check this article
before you do that….
Mogens Eliasen
-------------------------------------------
Mogens Eliasen holds a Ph.D. level degree in Chemistry from Århus University, Denmark and has 30+
years of experience working with dogs, dog owners, dog trainers, and holistic veterinarians as a coach,
lecturer, and education system developer. He publishes a free newsletter "The Peeing Post" containing
lots of tips and advice on dog problems of all kinds, particularly about training, behavioral problems,
feeding, and health care.
For more information about Mogens Eliasen, including links to other articles he has published, please send
a short e-mail to contact@k9joy.com.

[Missy Stewart]

And here is the article on how vaccinations work/don't work:

From the desk of Mogens Eliasen, for immediate release
This article may be reprinted without further permission
when brought in its entirety, including the bio the end.

August 17, 2004

Vaccinations – how they work, when they work…

Many people believe that a vaccination gives instant protection against certain
diseases, as included in the vaccine. This is absolutely not the case - and it can be
outright dangerous to administer vaccines under that assumption, as even many
veterinarians unfortunately do on a routine basis….
How vaccines are manufactured
There are, in principle, two types of vaccines:
1. killed vaccines
2. modified live vaccines.
Vaccines are manufactured by growing the virus that causes the disease on some
tissue that will allow it to nourish and grow. Once the culture has reached a
sufficient size for production, the manufacturing can start.
For a killed vaccine, the virus is simply killed, often by adding poisonous chemicals
to the culture. The culture is then “formulated” – which simply means diluted with
solvents and having reagents added to it so it can stay preserved and can be divided
into individual probes that can be sold, ready for injection through a needle.
For a modified live vaccine, the culture is not killed, but crippled instead. This is
accomplished by changing its living conditions, so it will temporarily lose its ability to
multiply at its normal rate. This can be done either through a change to a substance
for it to live from that is not optimal for it (tissue from a different species it normally
would not attack), or it can be accomplished by adding chemicals that will cripple it,
but not totally kill it. Sometimes both methods are used, as some preservation
chemicals always are added later on to preserve the vaccine in the containers it gets
sold in.
What a vaccine is supposed to do
A vaccine is supposed to challenge the body’s immune system – make it believe that
it got infected with the real disease, but because the disease is either dead or
crippled, the body’s immune system should have an easy job generating a response
that ends up being “overkill” because the vaccine really wasn’t that dangerous at all.
The entire range of processes and action that constitute such as response is very
complex, but there are two important components that should be understood:
- The body produces a serious of antibodies to encapsulate the virus and its
poisonous discharges.
- The body establishes a filing system that records the main characteristics of
the disease and will enable it to get an earlier warning next time an invasion
of this disease should occur.
This is just about the same it would do when fighting aback an attack of the real
disease.
In case of a vaccine, however, the antibodies will be produced in great excess –
because the body overestimated the need for them. Those antibodies can be
measured (often called “titers”), and when they are present, you have confirmation
that the dog’s immune system is prepared for an attack of this disease. Because of
this preparedness and the early warning the immune system will get because the
disease next time will be recognized almost momentarily, chances of a successful
battle against the disease are so vastly increased that a new infection generally will
be defeated before it ever gets to harm the body.
The same thing happens if the body successfully fought the real disease. The body
won’t be taken “off-guard” one more time by that disease, so, next time an infection
arrives, it will be defeated fast and completely. The body is thus immune to the
disease. This is called auto-immunization.
So, what happens in either case is that preparedness gets established through a
challenge to the immune system – by the immune system successfully defeating the
challenge.
Some important consequences...
As you can understand from the way vaccines work, they do not give instant
protection. The protection they cause the body to develop will take time to establish
– typically about the same time as a successful fight against the real disease. In
most cases, for our dogs, this means 2-3 weeks. So, in that meantime, the dog has
no protection! It is actually fighting a fake disease, as if it was sick – and, seriously,
sometimes the dog truly does get sick from a vaccination! Generally not quite as
bad as from the real disease, but bad enough to notice on its behavior.
Vaccines do differ from the real disease. For some, the different is so significant
that the body does not establish an effective protection against the disease – the
vaccine did not work… This is often the case for killed vaccines. The body quickly
figures out that somebody “cried wolf” for no good reason, and all the mobilized
defense gets dismissed, and no preparedness established. The vaccination is
considered a false alarm – which it actually also truly was! When the disease
arrives, the body will taken off guard… We got a false protection.
Vaccines also differ from the real disease by the fact of the virus being contained in
a liquid that gets injected into the body in a location that never would be a first
entrance for a naturally contracted infection. This surprise for the immune system
will normally result in exactly that over-reaction that is desired, but it can also
sometimes go too far: this happens when the body directs the preparedness towards
another attack from the same location in the body – and will thus not be timely
alerted when the real disease arrives through the natural entrances….
Finally, there is another important thing too take into account when administering a
vaccine. The virus comes in a liquid that contains some poisonous preservation
chemicals. On top of that, this “soup” also contains remains of the foreign tissue the
virus was cultivated on – it is impossible to physically take the virus off that tissue,
so the manufacturer simply takes the tissue with the virus – and dilutes it in the
poisonous soup that now is called “vaccine”. There are two important effects of this:
- The poisons will cause another challenge to the immune system. On top of
fighting the disease, it must also clean up after a serious “chemical spill”.
- Also the foreign tissue will challenge the immune system! It might actually
cause all kinds of allergic reactions, as foreign protein entered undigested,
directly into the blood should do!
Those two additional challenges to the immune system will cause the body to
experience the stress of three challenges at one time! This will, generally, take just
about all its capacity. Some research shows that we talk about 60-75% of that
capacity when we use a killed vaccine, and some 75-90% when we used a modified
live vaccine.

[Missy Stewart]

Part 2:

What if the dog is sick at the time of vaccination?
As you can understand from the way a vaccine uses the immune system’s capacity,
there will be a problem if the dog gets vaccinated at a time when it is already using
the immune system to fight another real disease. It could be something fairly
harmless that easily can be defeated, but when the vaccine gets added to the
picture, that picture changes dramatically….
We now have a competitive situation. The immune system has its limited capacity.
Here is one on-going battle that typically takes about half its capacity – and now
another challenge is introduced that demands way more attention than what it has
left of its capabilities! The result is that it must prioritize and concentrate on fighting
the most dangerous threat first. This will often be the current disease. But the
effect of that is that no immunity will be established against the vaccine – because,
at the time the immune system comes around to fighting it, it is very obvious that
this threat is fake – so it won’t be taken seriously. That means: the vaccine did not
work…
A very dangerous alternative to this is that some modified live vaccines “wake up”
when they got time to nourish themselves a regain their strength – and the dog will
not experience a full-fledged attack by the disease you were trying to protect it
from!
Another possibility is that the immune system will concentrate on the vaccine – and
leave the other disease to rampage the body and possibly do much more harm than
otherwise. The dog might actually get so sick from something fairly simple that it
can die from it.
Finally, those remains of the foreign tissue will, in both cases, probably be left to
float around in the blood – and do a lot of damage. Once the immune system finally
gets around to dealing with this problem, the damage can be significant. This will
result in the body now perceiving a very serious threat from these protein molecules
from the foreign tissue – so it will over-react in its defense against them. And that
is exactly what happens when an allergy reaction is created. The net result is that
the dog developed some serious allergies to certain proteins that are similar to those
that were in the virus tissue – and those will very often be from animals that are
used for dog food. Voila – we now have a serious food allergy!
What about multiple vaccinations?
Let’s assume we let the vet administer a “combi-shot”, i.e. a mix of several vaccines
in the same injection.
When we consider the capacity of the immune system, we can easily see that this is
not a smart move…. Each vaccine will need at least 60% of the body’s capacity for
immune defense in order to create an effective protection against this disease. We
will get the same situation as we had when we discussed vaccinating a sick dog.
Maximum one of the vaccines will work – and maybe none – and we won’t know
until it is too late… Mixing more than two vaccines just makes it even worse.
This has been confirmed by practical research. The famous Swiss Distemper
epidemic in 1984 is a prime example that clearly showed that dogs that had been
vaccinated with combined Distemper-Parvo vaccines contracted Distemper as easily
as dogs that had not been vaccinated at all!
In human medicine, this is well known. In Sweden and Japan, for instance,
vaccinating a person with more than one vaccine at a time is prohibited by law.
The US Army is probably the worst abuser of this rule, demanding multiple
vaccinations of its personnel – and trying to explain away the many casualties its
gets from this ridiculous procedure that might be cost effective in terms of a military
perspective – but certainly completely unacceptable from a humane standpoint.
So, why should we do this to our dogs….?
Mogens Eliasen
-------------------------------------------
Mogens Eliasen holds a Ph.D. level degree in Chemistry from Århus University, Denmark and has 30+
years of experience working with dogs, dog owners, dog trainers, and holistic veterinarians as a coach,
lecturer, and education system developer. He publishes a free newsletter "The Peeing Post" containing
lots of tips and advice on dog problems of all kinds, particularly about training, behavioral problems,
feeding, and health care.
For more information about Mogens Eliasen, including links to other articles he has published, please send
a short e-mail to contact@k9joy.com.

[Grace Erick]

Missy, can I have your phone number so you can just tell me this stuff. It's so long to read:) I really have to be ready to concentrate on reading this info when I can sit still for a while. I actually have a vaccine book out by a Catherine Diodati, MA, which I am finding hard to concentrate on reading since it's kind of intense and I think you really have to make notes to come away with any understanding of what you read. It's confusing, because I think some of the info is inconclusive or depends on where you live or where your pet goes or if they come in contact with other wildlife or dogs etc.

I don't remember which shot my friend's chi got that had a bump reaction to it, but I believe it was treated with antibiotics and not drained. I went to a vaccine clinic where the hospital is just open for a few hours once a month for injections only, so you don't pay an exam fee. The girl gave my dog the vaccine so fast, that I didn't have time to say, what about an alcohol swab where you are going to inject her??? Next time, I bring my own alcohol:)

[Missy Stewart]

That is the tough thing about vaccination info. A lot of it does depend on your dog's own unique situation... and i know what you mean about wading through reports and studies. It can definately be a bit heavy at times!!! One of the books that I have found the easiest to read throug has been The Vaccine Guide for Dogs & Cats. But the book does have a downside... it basically only talks about the negative. So you get a great view on all of the bad stuff that can happen.. and not a whole lot on the benefits.

Where are you from?? I wish I had more time to talk with you about this... I am currently in school (I am an IU student) so it is hard for me to get very much free time. Once summer starts (2nd week of May)... I spend a lot of my time researching my own interests and have a LOT more time for helping people out. If you really want to talk on the phone sometime that is fine... just let me know before hand if there is anything in particular that you would like me to look up for you.

Suprisingly enough, my major is not in animal medicine! So most all of the info that I have has been accumulated through the books that I own, readings that I have done on-line, newsletters that I subscirbe to, on-line forums, Sonny's trainer, his behaviorist, and his holistic vet. I'm an avid reader... and wading through all of the material can even get very draining for me!!

If I get some free time.. I will break down those articles for you into a more reader-friendly format ;) I'll just draw out the main points for you!

[Grace Erick]

I do have free phone service to anywhere once I spend over $20 which is a given since all my relatives and husband's relative's are out of state in NY. I used to buy phone cards, but found this plan to be more user friendly since I exceed the $20 minimun by buying $40 or more in calling cards.

I live in Washington state. I would love to talk with you, but I would want to be more on the same level with you as far as exchanging info so it wasn't that you were giving all the info, where I had something to contribute as well. I really have to concentrate on the vaccination book I have right now.

I read titers test immunity, but they are also not reliable and this is something very new to me. I thought titer test were the answer to everything. I read it awhile ago, and should have written down why so I could converse with knowledge that I could quote from a specific source. I have a lot more reading to do before I talk with you and are on the same level or close to the level you are on from all the research you have done.

[Missy Stewart]

Whatever you are most comfortable doing is fine with me! That is nice how you have a phone plan like that. My land line does not have long distance on it, so I just use my cell phone.

I have also gone somewhat back and forth about using titers. Sonny will not receive annual vacs (with his reactions it is down right dangerous) but it is distressing not having a good, soild alternative to not doing it. His homeopath is always telling me that I stress myself out over it too much, and that if I have a strong, healthy dog... the likelihood of his body actually sucumbing to a disease is very un-likely (not to mention that many of them are nearly obscure or isolated to certain geographic areas). But if you think about it... "Healthy" is a very arguable term. To her, a truely "healthy" dog is one fed an all-raw (organic) diet, one who is not on any synthetic medications, does not use chemical flea/tick drops, who uses vaccines sparingly, is on homeopathic immune boosters, and gets plenty of exercise. I tend to agree with her... but many would disagree with that statement. For example, I could guarantee you that the conventional vet down the street would have a very different answer. Perhaps he would say that a healthy dog is one who is eating one of his "great" foods, one who uses flea/tick preventative, receives annual boosters, and religiously comes in for their annual check-up. Now that paints a very different picture!! But it is the one that has been drawn into our minds since the day we were old enough to want a pet.

I wish I had some really good answers for you... unfortunantly nothing is black and white. If you are very serious about using more natural forms of immunity, etc. I would definately seek out a good homeopath. Try to find someone who really specializes in it, and does not just practice it a little on the side. Sonny's has been practicing homeopathic medicine for over 30 years... the mere level of her experience has been beneficial in analyzing his case. Do be prepared though for most EVERYTHING that you have been told to be questioned. That was the hardest part for me, I did not want to believe that money was the main incentive for a lot of veterinary practice and not the complete and total well being of my pet!!

If you go to the AHVMA website and click on "referral directory" it will allow you to search for a homeopath in your area. Try it out, hopefully you will get some hits ;)

[Grace Erick]

I just came from my vet because Capri had a dental cleaning and I spoke witht the sec'y about vaccines and she is also hearing so much about over vaccinating. She said the thing being discussed now if if the distemper shot can be given every 2 or 3 years. So I asked if manufacturers would just leave it out of the vaccine and she said the 5-1 vaccines don't come that way, but they mix them in the office, so it can be left out.

I have long distance free on my cell phone on weekends and after 9pm which is 12midnight in NY where my family is. I was buying so many phone cards then found a cheaper plan through the phone service we use where if I go over $20, all calls are free and I definitely go over $20 a month.

I asked the sec'y who was deciding how long the vaccines last, and she said the drug companies!!!!! How's that for unbaised info:)

[Missy Stewart]

You can ask your vet to give single vaccinations (one disease). A lot of them do not like to do it (mainly b/c it costs them more) but they should not refuse you if you ask. If they do, I would look for a different vet.

I have a book that talks about the procedures used in determining the life-span of a vaccine. Perhaps things have changed, but at the time that the book was written, the drug companies would decide on a time frame (usually between 1-3 years). They would then test immunity for that period of time, and then destroy the test group of dogs. By having the dogs put down... it became impossible for any other party to test immunity beyond the time-frame established by the drug companies.

There are a few independent sources that have done long-term testing on vaccinations. If I remember right, they tested out 7 years (per one vaccination). I know that one rabies vaccine (according to their findings) provided immunity for the full seven years. Unfortunantly, I cannot remember off the top of my head which other vaccines also lasted the full duration.

There are many who argue that a dog only needs two rabies vaccinations for a lifetime of immunity. Don Hamilton goes into detail about rabies vaccination/infection statistics in his book Homeopathic Care for Small Animals. He stated that out of all dogs who have only received 1 rabies vaccine, there has only been 1 known case of actual rabies infection among those dogs. And out of all dogs who have received only 2 rabies vaccines, there are no known cases of infection.

It is all very facinating!!

[David Crandall]

I've even read that some diseases are not even prevalent anymore, so it's another reason not to vaccinate, but I want to see some kind of study which I have yet to see by an independent source.


It's true that some of these diseases are less prevalent now, but, IMO, that's a poor reason to choose not to vaccinate. The argument can be made that the reason the disease are less prevalent is the widespread success of the vaccine.

As an analogy in humans, polio is very, very uncommon in the US now, and, due to increasing spread of the vaccine, it's also becoming less common worldwide. This decrease is why they changed the recommendations here in the US and no longer give the live vaccine. As an aside here, live vaccines do run the risk of causing infection in the vaccinee, though usually less severe than the full strength disease. However, if we decide to stop vaccinating because it is no longer prevalent, that only sets up the opportunity for the disease to become wide-spread again. This can be a devastating disease, and the risks of vaccination (especially now that the live vaccine is no longer used) are tiny in comparison.

With dangerous conditions, IMO we should still be vaccinating until the disease is eradicated, and not just has a low prevalence.

The concept of strengthening the immune system is a good idea, but against some diseases, IMO, it's still not enough. I'll be honest, my knowledge about this is much better in humans than in dogs, so I'm not really qualified to get into specifics over which to vaccinate for and which not to.

Please keep in mind, I'm not arguing that we need to vaccinate for everything or for every year, just that I don't think the low prevalence argument is a good reason to stop.

Dave

[Missy Stewart]

I agree with you in a lot of ways. Choosing not to vaccinate based on the prevalence of the disease in your area ONLY is not a good enough reason. There are a lot of different aspects to take into consideration. I think the most important point here is how often you choose to. I personally would never feel comfortable telling someone to do it every single year. There is so much evidence building as to how dangerous this practice is. I think that is why the veterinary community is finally starting to question the validity of the procedure.

I think one of the most obvious vaccine-induced problems currently taking place is Fibro sarcomas within cats. Fibro sarcoma is a cancer that arises at the site of injection (most typically from rabies and feline leukemia). Researchers have actually identified vaccine particles within the cancer masses in a large number of cases. Many veterinarians are now actually referring to these cancers as vaccine sarcomas. They are malignant, and the average life expectance is less than 3 years. Some vets have actually started recommending giving the vaccine in the leg, or even the tail, to make amputation a viable option in case of cancer!! :shock:

The standards for pet vaccines are far below that of humans. It is sad... just imagine if laws started requiring annual vacs for people. It would never happen! I remember reading a study about a group of kids who, many years ago, were vaccinated annually for (polio??). Every child in the group died before the age of 35 from tuberculosis. The study went into detail about how tuberculosis was once considered a disease that plagued only the wealthy.. but that it was later linked to the level of vaccination used within this group of people (since they were the only ones who could afford it annually).

You would also never hear of using a 7-way vaccine on a person. It shocks the body!! Yet vets reccomend them for our pets! I have recently started seeing ads for a five-way vac for babies! I was appalled. Why are we shocking our babies systems with these large/cocktail vaccines?

Most view vaccines as a necessary evil. I see them, in my opinion, as something to use in moderation. My dog had horrible reactions to his. His vet is considering writing him a letter of exemption even for rabies due to the severity of his body's reaction. You just have to take into consideration the specific needs of your own pet ;) That is the key here.

[Missy Stewart]

Oh, I guess I should have made it more clear that homeopaths use nosodes as a form as strenghthing the dogs immunity naturally as well as providing immunity from diseases that you would typically vaccinate for ;)

[Grace Erick]

David, I also agree about waiting for a disease to be eradicated before decisions are made not to vaccinate. I may be wrong here, but I think if you keep your dogs in your own backyard and they never come into contact with other dogs, you can eliminate certain vaccines. I'm not sure which ones.

My dog has play dates and is out and about, so I don't want to take any chances right now and not have her fully vaccinated.

Missy & David, I think I read that a puppy needs to get the rabies shot at a certain age for it to work for supposedly a lifetime. There a catch to that theory. Also, a lot of what I read anywhere and everywhere always use the word "most likely". Well "most likely" my dog will not get a disease if not vaccinated is not good enough!

[Missy Stewart]

I believe it is after 9 months for the rabies vaccine... it may be a year though. I know that I have read that vaccines given before 12 weeks of age do little good. Somehow puppy's that young are still working off of the immunity passed on from their mothers (if I remember right). ;)

[David Crandall]

Also, a lot of what I read anywhere and everywhere always use the word "most likely". Well "most likely" my dog will not get a disease if not vaccinated is not good enough!

Any time you're dealing with a biological system, whether it be human, canine, piscine, or bacterial, it's best not to speak in absolutes. There's too much variability, and too many factors we don't understand; and there's always ;) an exception. On medical exams a good way to narrow down choices is to eliminate answers that use the words "always" or "never". Of course, there are exceptions to that, so even that rule doesn't work as an absolute.

I agree that the standards for vaccines in animals is well below that of humans, and that's likely contributing to the problem. The difficulty with the analogy to the human schedule of vaccines it that in kids they're scheduled to be given up until age 12 or so (not counting the adult ones). Obviously that won't work for dogs, since many breeds don't even live that long.

What you say about vaccines given too early is true. They still have the maternal antibodies, and so will not develop immunity that young (though again, at least in humans, there are exceptions where vaccines are given at birth in certain situations).

There is one big thing that's been bothering me about the concept of vaccinosis in animals. Some of the stuff I read talks about it being related to the contaminants in the vaccines, such as mercury, arsenic, etc. For those arguing this side, then the simple solution is to use more purified vaccines (someone in another thread mentioned using homeopathic vaccines which are said not to have these contaminants).
Others talk about vaccinosis being related to the effects on the immune system of the vaccine itself. Obviously if this is more the case, then the solution is not so straightforward.

Of course, like most cases in medicine and science, the answer likely lies somewhere between, with each problem causing some of the effects, with the problems in an individual animal being due more to one effect or the other.

I think the same is true of the homeopathy vs allopathy thing; I feel each has its merits and its disadvantages, and the "ideal" path is somewhere in between. As a strong skeptic, I think the biggest mistake is to completely discount what either side says (though I suppose a stronger skeptic would discount what both sides say).

I definitely agree that the vaccines are likely not needed every year (though with all the skunks and raccoons and such in our area, I'm not going to take the chance with rabies). And I also sort of view them as a necessary evil.

Dave

[Grace Erick]

Do you remember, I think it was on Johnny Carson or was it Jay Leno, they had what they called the "double talk man"? He would talk to you, but you couldn't understand what he was saying, because he never enunciated words and you kind of remind me of him:)

I am skeptical about your skeptibility!:) At the same time I agree with your skeptibility about being skeptible!:)

[Rebekah Hartman]

"Last thing, be careful when you do vaccinate - we think Samson may have gotten vaccinosis (unsure if it's at all related to the Parvo) - and has had 2 seizures, so we are treating with Lyssin & Thuja, which a holistic vet may recommend when he has his vaccinations just to make sure they don't overwhelm his immune system"

My dog, Chloe (5 yr old Great Dane), has Parvo and is in the vet's right now. I was wondering if the Parvo could make her react to the vaccinations like Samson (the dog talked about in the blue) did?
If so what should I be asking the vet about that wouldn't cause reactions like that?
I just got Chloe from the Humane Society so I don't know much about her history.

I'm Samson's mom - I, in a way, started this discussion. Let me say, first off, I am skeptical about the holistic side of things - if there is comprehensive, peer-reviewed evidence out there to indicate that something is good or bad, or "back up" a certain practice (e.g., yearly vaccination), then I think it would be better to do it than not. As with vaccinations in humans, there will be side effect and complications. If you are one of the people on the side that has a reaction, you will search for other answers even if they aren't necessarily "proven" scientifically.

That being said, I have been able to find a little bit of peer-reviewed scientific information regarding dogs, and apparently there is a paradigm shift occurring in how vaccinations are approached. In my dog's case, he's only 21 weeks old so he was only completing the initial vaccination phase. It's less common to have a reaction at this time apparently. When he was vaccinated, they combined the 5-in-1 and rabies. He could have reacted to any of them, but it also could have been something totally unrelated which caused the seizures.

I spoke with Dr. Jean Dodds or HemoPet because I had read some things on a seizure website about the organization and figured, "what the heck, I'll try anything". The first question she asked was, "When was his rabies vaccination?" It was 20 days before seizure #1 (most reactions occur between 7-45 days after). When I explained that he'd also had the other 5 and had Parvo 10 weeks previous, she suggested putting him on a homeopathic remedy of Thuja and Lyssin which apparently help detox their systems or something. Again, I repeat, I am somewhat skeptical, but I do not want to do seizure meds (most of the children I work with have seizures) and 2 oz. of each product only cost me $30. Why not?

I also located a holistic vet in my area (again, not 100% convinced I will agree with everything she tells me unless she can back it up), but I will probably take him there at 1 yr so they can handle future vaccinations. Here is the American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association's referral site link: http://www.ahvma.org/referral/index.html The search results don't come up in a very organized listing, so you have to scroll through to find one that's geographically appropriate.

I don't know if this will work, but I'll try to provide links to the articles Dr. Dodds provided. By the way, HemoPet is non-profit and she talked to me 3 times without getting any "compensation". Something about that makes me feel a little better about the info, too.

[Rebekah Hartman]

Ok, looks lthe attachments aren't going to work. I guess if you're interested, I can send them via PM or e-mail.

[Missy Stewart]

I do have an exact quote somewhere on the lack of validity behind annual vacs.. But since I cannot find the one that I want, the quote below will have to work:

"The world's largest vaccine manufacturer, Merck in Germany, is publishing what has become "the vaccine bible" - a huge reference work with all kinds of crucial information on vaccines. All serious professionals in the industry use it as a reference. Merck writes in this giant handbook that vaccination should never be done to any individual who suffers from any kind of allergy or neurological disorder - simply because the vaccine has a large risk of doing irreversible neurological damage for such individuals. Merck is also warning against repeated vaccinations and multiple vaccinations, based of evidence of the same side effects"

But here is the frustrating part:

"Even if your veterinarian has researched all this on his own and has arrived at the very same conclusions, he still cannot support you. The reason is that he would risk his license to practice veterinarian medicine, if he did... His trade union, the veterinarian association he must be a member of in order to get his license (because the governments in North America have delegated their control powers to those associations), will pull his license if he publicly supports points of view that conflict with what the veterinarian association considers to be in the best interest of its members. And you will never get any trade union to accept any proposal that will result in a reduction of its members' average income to the tune of some 70-80%...."

I have found this to be one of the most highly debated topics among "dog people" There is an extreme amount of controversy around it. I also agree with the idea of falling somewhere in the middle. I would never refuse to allow my dog to partake in western medicine... yet at the same time, if I feel that there is a safer alternative for him, I am not to afraid to try it. It's all about finding a medium!

[Grace Erick]

I've always heard it was bad to vaccinate a sick dog, but I then wondered what if your dog will have a life long immune problem, then what? He never gets immunized?

I think when it comes do a potentially deadly disease, even holistic people may say try the holistic way, but don't discard the medical professionals advice for taking on your meds for things like cancer like still going for chemo or radiation.

[Missy Stewart]

I think that the main reason they say not to vaccinate a sick animal is b/c vaccinations (when first administered) suppresses the immune system. Therefore, instead of your dogs body focusing on the sickness that it is fighting (like cancer) it also directs energy towards fighting the vaccination. There are a LOT of cases where animals who had actually gone into remission from cancer, had it come back much stronger after receiving their annual shots.

If you have a pet that is going to react VERY severily to a vaccine... you are risking more by giving it than not. That is what I have had to deal with in vaccinating Sonny. I mentioned before that his vet is seriously considering writing him a letter of exemption freeing him from vaccination laws. His reactions are more detrimental to his health than the actual chance of him contracting a diesease. So yes, in a sense, some animals cannot receive normal vaccination schedules.. their bodies will not allow it.

Cases like this do happen with people. As a baby, I actually was never able to receive the full set of the DTP vaccinations. After the first, I had such a severe reaction that the doctor was not willing to administer the remaining shots. My parents were told, by multiple healthcare professionals, that I would never be able to be vaccinated against those diseases. Sometimes it just happens that way... even to this day.. I always run a high fever after I get a shot. The fever will last several days :(