Can you expect two dogs to share?

[Monique Shimm]

We are expecting a new puppy today - a 10 week old JRT mix rescue. We already have a 6 year old Shepherd mix. Our Shepherd is a great dog after a lot of work - one of the few remaining issues is that she is possessive of sticks - very valuable to her. We think she'll share her toys... but what about sticks? How do we manage this situation? At the dog park, it is easy to prohibit use of sticks but now that we have a second dog at home..... For example, if our dog has a stick and the puppy approaches to get it or investigate and our Shepherd growls... what do we do? Take the stick away? Allow her to defend her right to the stick?

Thanks for any advice,
Monique

[Luciann]

well if it is something that might cause a problem i would suggest that you keep the sticks away from her to start with. what you can do is allow the puppy to investigate the stick to start with then let her have it...

if you don't already have her on NILIF i would start her on it and the puppy too. there is an article in the library under training for NILIF (nothing in life is free)

she might not allow him to play with her toys either so i would suggest picking up all toys or items of possible contention to start with and allowing the each to have one at the same time....

if she sees that if the puppy has one she has one it might help with any guarding she might do...

i am sure you will get more advice from others as well but that is how i would start it out

[Alberta Hanko]

I would follow Luciann's great advice and keep anything she might guard away when she and the puppy are together.

I would also work on a couple of commands, making them fun for her, but when you are alone with her. don't work this with the puppy around. You want to teach her to "leave it":

http://www.doggiebagonline. com/forum/showthread.php?t=307 8

And also to "drop it". Drop it is very simple. Have something really super in your hand. Give your dog a toy, show her the treat (and make this something special that you only use for this training--not just dried kibble, but a smear of peanut butter, tiny pieces of garlic chicken, or tiny pieces of hot dogs, steak--somethign really good), and when she opens her mouth says in a very upbeat voice, "drop it" and hand her the treat. Work it along until you can get her to do this with sticks.

A great little investment is a small book called "Mine" by Jean Donaldson.

http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=D TB740

It's not available on Amazon new any longer, you could also try E-Bay, or www.bookins.com.

Can't wait to see pictures of them. What are their names?

[Daniela Jantzen]

Hello Monique,

We are expecting a new puppy today - a 10 week old JRT mix rescue. We already have a 6 year old Shepherd mix. Our Shepherd is a great dog after a lot of work - ...

Gorgious! I love to hear people's work with their dogs paying off... Keep up the good work!


one of the few remaining issues is that she is possessive of sticks - very valuable to her. We think she'll share her toys... but what about sticks?
Could you go into any more details about her guarding behaviour?
Is she just growling and snapping the other dog away? Or would she snap, lunge, bite at the other one?

Do you by any chance have a fixed marker-word for good behaviour (e.g. "top" or "hipp" or something short and easy like that) or do you clickertrain your 6year old?

Daniela

[Monique Shimm]

Our shepherd has been trained on so many levels... she is a therapy dog, she has done multiple advanced training, etc. etc. After 6 years of constant training... getting over some aggression issues at age 2... she is wonderful. She very willingly gives up sticks or whatever to us. However, if another dog approaches her and her stick, she will growl. If the dog ignores the warning, she will lunge and snap. She has not bitten any dog - yet : ) So sometimes, I just take the stick away before something happens. But since it is her only really valued thing, I feel bad about doing that. She also has some fear aggression around large groups of dogs so we limit her time at dog parks... opting for walking in the woods where we see only a few dogs at a time.

The puppy arrived yesterday. Finally, today, our shepherd has stopped sulking and is engaging the puppy in a very controlled play. If the puppy goes to far, she corrects him... and believe me, he tries. He has had access to all her toys... sorry, didn't read the post in time... but seems to be willing to share. However, once today, when the shep was tempting the puppy with a squeaky ball and he went for it, she gave a very large snarl. This was after about 20 minutes of interaction. I suppose I should limit the play to shorter time... hard though... this puppy is extremely active - hardly ever sleeps. Crate training is painful.

[De Clark]

Can't offer anything new sorry. Wanted to say congrats on the new addition. Looking forward to pics.

[Alberta Hanko]

Wow Monique, you are doing great. I see you realized you should ahve limited the play, and will do that. Of course when they are getting along and playing, it is always tempting to keep going. I find that I ahve to force myself to stop working with Linus' aggression isses while things are going well, rather than keep going longer since he is doing just fine. If I keep going it too often leads to overload for him, and he can lose it.

since it is her only really valued thing, I feel bad about doing that.

I am smiling as I see that. I understand what you are saying. Just work with her on that one so it becomes less important to her. You are doing everything just fine, removing the stick before it becomes an issue.

The reason I am smiling is because when we first adopted Linus, he was quiet the first day, (probably scared to death). The second day I took him out into my (thank goodness) fenced in yard, let him loose and then spent the next 5 hours trying to corral him. So I began training him, and my DH said to me: "I don't want to break his spirit". Linus, at 6, is still mischievous but has learned to give things up to us (since it is better stuff that we have) and his recall is around 95%.

Looking forward to pictures and hearing how things are going.

[Daniela Jantzen]

Hello Monique,

that sounds very good!
Great job you are doing over there... :)

Alright, in addition to Alberta's great advice to keep the play times at a level at which none of the dogs is too aroused and therefore prone for "misbehaving", I would like to make one or two suggestsions.

First of all, growling at the other dog in order to claim a ressource for something is nothing to be worried about. It is purely canine and also a lesson the little pup needs to learn:
"Ok, little pal, you might go THIS far but no step further. This is MINE."
Learning about frustration and understanding of a dog's body language is essential to dogs from early on.

Your job will be to prevent the situation from getting worse, meaning one of the two dogs will have the feeling that snapping or growling needs to be accomplished by more physical action.

Therefore, you have two possibilites:

No 1:
"Only good things happen when the other dog is present/close."
Make sure you praise, reward and therefore encourage the two of them for good and calm behaviour with the each other, no matter if they are just laying sleepily close to each other or accept the other walking around and coming closer, etc.
The better and the more positive things they associate with each other, the more they will like each other - and the higher their tolerance for each other will be, thus reducing the individual space they need around each other.

No 2:
"Only the best things happen when the other dog is present/close to a favoured object."
Same as above. But once one of the dogs has something valuable for him/her and the other one approaches, step in, call the approaching dog to your side and reward for turning away from the other with something special and equally rewarding as the favoured object would have been in that moment.
The long-time goal will be:
One of the dogs has something nice, the other approaches and calmly checks out what it is: but instead of claiming it, will come to you instead.

When it comes to guarding behaviour with other dogs in the park etc.:
click and treat or praise and treat while the other dog approaches. Not matter how your dog reacts in that moment!
Simply step in and block the other dog while rewarding yours.
The goal is to turn the negative emotion, boiling inside your furpal at the sight of other approaching the oh so important stick into something less negative - and eventually, after a few repetitions, into something positive ("Hey, mummy, he is coming, come on, you forgot to click and treat!").
And again: the more positive the emotion, the more tolerant towards others she will be.

[Monique Shimm]

Okay, had to give you an update. Before I do, thanks for the latest postings... I'll have to work on those.

I decided this morning to implement NILIF on the puppy. I thought that I was doing it, but really not to the full extent. After the puppy had a chance to pee and poop, I confined him in the kitchen while I made breakfast. I made sure all my actions were calm and didn't rush around. I then gave him four toys, one every two minutes or so, and only after the gave me a sit (he is such a smart puppy for 11 weeks - and luckily he is food oriented). I then took both for a walk... shorter this time so as not to exhaust the puppy. And I prevented the puppy from trying to bite my dogs legs. He only tried one or twice on me which is an improvement from yesterday. Then I let them go into the backyard.... here it is... my dog had a stick... the pup approaches... franny growls... puppy starts to chew another stick and then calmly comes over to chew the other side of the stick and the Shep allowed him to! I know this could be a one time thing but I think the NILIF thing is working to calm the puppy down and also showing my Shep that I am taking control. So lots to work on but I can see it is possible that they may be great buds in the future.

[Luciann]

very good, but still be very vigilant when a stick is in play between the two of them....you are making progress and it will help so much for all of you

and as long as Franny is correcting him with warning growls then that is good and he is listening...

she also sees that you are in control of the situations by making the new kid follow the rules also

[Monique Shimm]

I've started treating both dogs with high value treats when the puppy approaches Franny. That seems to be working well... but it is difficult to manage a puppy who is so food oriented... after he finishes his treat, he quickly goes for the food directly out of Franny's mouth. So I end up ramming another treat in Franny's mouth to keep her occupied.

The other issue is that the puppy is constantly going for my legs... especially when Franny is not in the mood to play with him. I've tried positive - treat him when he responds to 'out'. And if I catch him early enough, it works. Problem happens when he catches me off-guard and gets a good nip and then I yelp and that just encourages him. (by the way, I also tried getting him to stop but saying 'ouch' - but that didn't work). I also tried rolling him over to protect my legs and not letting him up until he stops struggling. That has limited effect - I make sure that I am not angry and it seems that he doesn't fear me when I do this.

Thirdly, a friend who breeds dogs told me to grab the scruff of the neck and tell him 'no'. I tried that today and he seemed surprised and backed off.

I was going to ignore the problem but you really can't... he gets a good grip of my pant leg, or skin on leg, or wrist and doesn't let go. He seems to be playing as opposed to be aggressive. He body is bowed down in play mode...

what shall I do????????

[Alberta Hanko]

Hi Monique - I would give him a time out, whether it is removing yourself to another room, or moving him to another spot, calmly just saying something as simple as "you're out" or "you're finished" whatever, and give him 30 seconds to a minute. Whatever you do, if he is carrying on, don't go get him until he is calm. He may go right back to doing it, do the same thing another time out. Believe me enough repetitions will work with this. My Linus had us bleeding from rough play when he was a puppy, and I did all the yelping (he went wilder), tossing a change can (he grabbed it and ran off with this "new toy"), and pretty much everything except the scruff shake or the alpha roll--fortunately.

grab the scruff of the neck and tell him 'no'. I tried that today and he seemed surprised and backed off.


I am not a fan of this or the alpha roll, and since he is a rough playing puppy he will get used to it, after the first surprise, and may just become rougher in his play. Also, if he is scared, he may growl or nip because this frightens him.

[Monique Shimm]

Sorry - I forgot to mention this... I do give him time outs when at home... but when it happens during a walk, the only thing left open to me would be to tie him to a tree and walk away... but this is kind of hard to do when his teeth are rapped around my wrist.

[Alberta Hanko]

Good for you reading his body language so well. He is playing.

when it happens during a walk, the only thing left open to me would be to tie him to a tree and walk away...

Point taken - I can see this could be more difficult when you are out. A couple of ideas then. Stop everything, be like a tree and just stand there without making any eye contact, turn your back to him. It may accelerate before it gets better but to really isn't much fun tugging and playing with someone who is not responding. You can also try a noise sort of like "eheh" (I use bip bip in a high voice to get Bella's attention when she decides it is fun to tug on her leash and it's sure not fun for the one holding the other end). Then as soon as things calm down "good boy" perhaps a treat, or just get moving again. The whole thing to this is as soon as he stops, that nanosecond, "good boy" and get walking again. You can also bring along maybe a favorite toy of his, and redirect him to that, saying "good boy" and then introducing the toy for a bit of a tug game.

Are you working along with basic obedience with him also? If he is learning to sit, you can try asking for a "sit" replacing one behavior with another.

It will get better, but I sure remember those painful puppy nips.

[Monique Shimm]

Okay, I'll try that. And I guess I should be smart about this and start wearing thicker pants so it doesn't hurt so much!!!

[Alberta Hanko]

Or maybe shin and ankle guards! ;)

[Luciann]

or wear hiking boots so that if he is getting the ankles those are protected

[Daniela Jantzen]

Hello,

I would love to add something to this wonderful piece of advice by Alberta:

....You can also bring along maybe a favorite toy of his, and redirect him to that, saying "good boy" and then introducing the toy for a bit of a tug game.

You do have a little pal there who seems to be smart and energetic.
Redirecting his attention and energy to a toy or whatever else to mouth can give you two opportunities:
a) your hands and feet are safe - nice.... ;) ; and
b) your dog will be able to learn a wonderful job from being redirected: carry around stuff!

If you teach your dog how to carry something, this is the first step to train your personal canine assistant at home: someone to help you picking up the dirty laundry, carrying your purse, your keys - and maybe even learn to find them on cue later on - can be very helpful.
Your dog gets exercise for both brain and body. And will therefore be more relaxed.

Another positive thing with the redirection to a tug-toy: it can be tossed and he can "fight" for it. Which is both a highly rewarding behaviour. And therefore one to keep in mind as super-treat in case you ever have to redirect him from hunting squirrels.
Or birds.
Or the postman.
Just make sure you do not stop him from hunting down the multi-millionaires! ;)

Daniela

[Monique Shimm]

Tried the carrying thing, but he will carry it for a foot or two and then drop down to chew on it... He does listen to 'sit' command... but of course, it becomes a game because as soon as we move on, he will bit the back of my leg again. I must admit, I started using negative reinforcement (holding him out of reach with the leash or a quick tug of my clothes and tell him 'no') because it has been three weeks... although he does seem to start to understand the 'out' command since he gives up items without too much of a struggle (and does so whether I happen to have a treat handy or not)