Help! He loves "using" his crate!

[Susan Bacon]

I am a big advocate for crate training. Last September we got a 12-week old Shih Tzu named Beans who was housebroken in about ten days, all thanks to the crate and a strict schedule we found in the book How to Housetrain Your Dog in Seven Days Wow! Piece of Cake!

Thinking back on how easy the housebreaking was, 5 weeks ago my husband and I decided to get Beans a brother and brought home another Tzu, Panda at 12 weeks. Different Dog, Different Story! Using +R, it took 3 weeks to get him to understand that it was not only good, but even OKAY to go outside. I don't work and was diligently spending 10 minutes every hour outside saying "go potty," then putting him in the crate for a few minutes before trying again. Most often he'd spend 5 seconds in there and pee every time.

Fortunately, we turned a tiny corner (actually it was a BIG corner!) a little over a week ago. He now knows where his designated outside potty place is and that he'll get treats and praises if he goes there, so he often does. However.... our desperate problem is that Panda still has no problem peeing and pooping in his crate if he doesn't go outside in his 5-8 minute timespan. I've tried sectioning off all but a small part of the crate, I keep it squeaky clean with Nature's Miracle, I watch him for signs that he's about to go, as Potty 101 suggests I startle him with NO! and whisk him Outside! Outside! (as he finishes peeing on me and himself). How in the world do I help him to understand that the crate is not his personal bathroom?

What makes matters worse is that he was diagnosed with Coccidia last week (passed it on to Beans too--what fun!) Before he started meds he had diahrrea in the crate two nights in a row. The diahrrea is well under control now, but since then he's decided it's okay to poop in the night. How in the world do I break THAT habit? Will patience and +R prevail in time? Should I just tether him to me all the time and only crate him while we're gone and at night?

I am running out of new ideas and would be so appreciative of any helpful comments. This is frustrating and upsetting, as anyone who's gone through this will know.
Thanks! Susan :help:

[Andre Mendizabal]

Oh Susan, I'm so sorry you're having trouble with your second pooch!!! Well, first of all patience and keeping up with the +R is really the way to go... tether him to you while you are at home is also a good idea, that way you will know exactly when is he getting ready to "go" and take him to his spot right away... I would put the crate aside for the daytime, until he is more aware of the right place to go. Its so frustrating when you had a great experience and then a dog that just doesn't seem to "get it", but he will eventually do, some dogs need more time than others... just keep up the good work and have patience, patience, patience!!! :D
Good luck :bunny: (love the dancing bunny!!!)

[Susan Bacon]

Thank you for your sympathy Andre. It helps just for someone to say "hang in there!" I've had Panda tethered to me all day and he has yet to have an accident after "not" going outside and will definitely continue to keep this up for a while when I'm home.

I read yet another article on housetraining this morning and am wondering if he has a tactile or even visual connection to his crate and going potty in there. Does anyone have an opinion on this? Should I try taking out the wire grate and putting down a blanket on the plastic tray in order to change his tactile substrate?

Finally, can anyone comment on whether the meds he's on for the coccidia (Tylan and Flagyl) are making him poop at night?

Thanks again!

[Jill Ramsey]

Was Panda from a pet store or somewhere they kept him in a crate/cage that he had to potty in? If he was, all of that has to be untrained. He had all that time to learn to potty in his cage. Maybe putting down an old towel as bed will keep him from going in the crate. Good luck, & hang in there. :banghead:

[Jesse Cruz]

hello susan, i am living your pain, not as bad but i am. i also have 2 shih tzu's and my first girl was absolutely amazing at learing housetraining. she is now 1 yr old and i decided to get her a playmate so i got her a 4 month old male. he is not learning as quickly as my girl did but he is doing ok. he does not have accidents in his crate which is a plus. i have a nice furry bed in there to keep him warm and cozy, so maybe you should try giving panda somthing he likes to sleep on. my boy does have an accident a day if you let him wander off so you have to keep your eyes glued to him. i think the tethering is working for you so just keep it up. like i mentioned do try a little bed or something in his crate to see if maybe he'll consider it something he won't want to dirty.
keep us updated.

[Maria Juliano]

I am a big advocate for crate training. Last September we got a 12-week old Shih Tzu named Beans who was housebroken in about ten days, all thanks to the crate and a strict schedule we found in the book How to Housetrain Your Dog in Seven Days Wow! Piece of Cake!

Thinking back on how easy the housebreaking was, 5 weeks ago my husband and I decided to get Beans a brother and brought home another Tzu, Panda at 12 weeks. Different Dog, Different Story! Using +R, it took 3 weeks to get him to understand that it was not only good, but even OKAY to go outside. I don't work and was diligently spending 10 minutes every hour outside saying "go potty," then putting him in the crate for a few minutes before trying again. Most often he'd spend 5 seconds in there and pee every time.

Fortunately, we turned a tiny corner (actually it was a BIG corner!) a little over a week ago. He now knows where his designated outside potty place is and that he'll get treats and praises if he goes there, so he often does. However.... our desperate problem is that Panda still has no problem peeing and pooping in his crate if he doesn't go outside in his 5-8 minute timespan. I've tried sectioning off all but a small part of the crate, I keep it squeaky clean with Nature's Miracle, I watch him for signs that he's about to go, as Potty 101 suggests I startle him with NO! and whisk him Outside! Outside! (as he finishes peeing on me and himself). How in the world do I help him to understand that the crate is not his personal bathroom?

What makes matters worse is that he was diagnosed with Coccidia last week (passed it on to Beans too--what fun!) Before he started meds he had diahrrea in the crate two nights in a row. The diahrrea is well under control now, but since then he's decided it's okay to poop in the night. How in the world do I break THAT habit? Will patience and +R prevail in time? Should I just tether him to me all the time and only crate him while we're gone and at night?

I am running out of new ideas and would be so appreciative of any helpful comments. This is frustrating and upsetting, as anyone who's gone through this will know.
Thanks! Susan :help:

Hi Susan,

When I got my two shih tzus, brother and sister, at 10 weeks old they too had Coccidia. it cleared after 14 days of treatment, meanwhile, I had them both crated in the same crate with a floor grate plus a divider, giving them little room but enough to turn around. I placed comfortable bedding, toys, a water bottle and not once either of my babies soiled their "den." How long have your babies been on the meds? Maybe you need to reduce the space in his crate.

[Vicki Pagano]

:p
Hello Susan,

I, too, have this exact same problem. Angel is 5 months old and sometimes soils her crate when I am at work. I DO have a neighbor who faithfully lets her outside at around Noon every day. To date, she is now sleeping through the night, (with me on the bed) for about 6-7 hours, so I know she can hold it. I just don't understand myself why in the world she would soil where she sleeps!

My pup is epileptic as well, :-(, and on numerous meds so that was identified as a potential problem weeks ago, but as I stated, she has improved in her ability to hold her business for quite awhile.

I wish I had some insight for you, but I don't. One reply here suggested to make the crate space smaller. I did that and she pooed in her crate anyways. Geez! Plus, being epileptic, I couldn't leave her alone with such a small area. If she seized, heaven forbid, she'd probably break ber legs with the thrashing and paddling that go along with seizures.

I found that sleeping in bed with me, with my arm literally around her, I KNOW when she wakes up and I take her outside where she does her business.

I hope you find an answer, because I sure could use one myself!

Your's in puppydom,
vicki and Angel

[Amber]

I agree with Andre. Tether your pup to you while you are home, that way you know right away when Panda has to go. When he starts circling, or actually before that when he starts sniffing, take him outside. I trained my dogs with taking them outside every couple of hours (of course mine are older), even when I knew they didn't HAVE to go, and saying "Let's go outside." Now they know what that phrase means and they run to the back door every time I say it...actually, all I have to do is open the back door and they run out! My dogs are 11 months and 1 1/2 years old though, so you will have to take Panda out every hour to two hours. My 1 1/2 year old dog was a rescue who wasn't housebroken...try to housebreak a female adult dog already set in her own ways!!! That's ALWAYS fun!! lol

Vicki, you're lucky. At 5 months old, my poodle was not holding her bladder for that long! As for making the crate space smaller...that would work in Susan's case. Dog's usually don't potty where they sleep if it's a small enough area. Rule of thumb for a crate is it's supposed to be big enough for the dog to stand up and turn around comfortably. So that means if you get the dog as a puppy, you either have to buy a small crate and then upgrade later on down the line, or buy a big enough crate for when the puppy is full grown and buy dividers so that it is small enough to effectively crate train your puppy.

[Susan Bacon]

Thank you, all of you, who shared some great ideas. Last night I took the wire grate out of Panda's cage for the first time, sectioned it off again, and laid down a soft towel for him to sleep on. Held my breath this morning when I went in to let the boys out (literally), but Panda's bed was clean!! :clap: What a beautiful thing not to be greeted by a stinky, soiled crate!

I left him crated again for a couple of hours after a successful pee outside this morning and that went well, too. :clap: Other than that he's been tethered to me, had a few accidents anyway (I've just got to get him out every 2 hours), but at least the diahrrea is over and we can start giving him some mild treats again everytime we have a joyful outside puppy party.

Hey, I know it might continue to be 2 steps forward and 3 back for a while, and I sure appreciate the support of this forum. It's been a pretty darn stressful 5 weeks of housetraining so far, but it's nice to know others have gone through some similar things for the sake of the love of a great dog. Thanks again for the awesome communication! Susan

[Amy Siggers]

This forum is so great! I am so sorry you are having so much trouble but I can identify with all of you! Cassie is 3 months old today and is doing very well with her crate training but will sometimes poop in there and step all in it! EWW! She also doesnt seem to care that she soils where she sleeps. I have her a sheepskin bed in there with a warm baby blanket and a few toys. she is getting better with it and like you, I know she can hold it, because I decided she needed to sleep with my husband and I and most nights she sleeps about 7 hours.. Sometimes she'll lick me and wake me up around 2:30a.m. to let me know she needs to go and I get up and take her out and sure enough she goes as soon as we get outside.. These dogs are SO smart most of the time Cassie does great but just like everyone else's tzus if I let her wander for a few minutes she just HAS to shoot a squirt of pee out somewhere!! lol...

[Maria Juliano]

Thank you, all of you, who shared some great ideas. Last night I took the wire grate out of Panda's cage for the first time, sectioned it off again, and laid down a soft towel for him to sleep on. Held my breath this morning when I went in to let the boys out (literally), but Panda's bed was clean!! :clap: What a beautiful thing not to be greeted by a stinky, soiled crate!

I left him crated again for a couple of hours after a successful pee outside this morning and that went well, too. :clap: Other than that he's been tethered to me, had a few accidents anyway (I've just got to get him out every 2 hours), but at least the diahrrea is over and we can start giving him some mild treats again everytime we have a joyful outside puppy party.

Hey, I know it might continue to be 2 steps forward and 3 back for a while, and I sure appreciate the support of this forum. It's been a pretty darn stressful 5 weeks of housetraining so far, but it's nice to know others have gone through some similar things for the sake of the love of a great dog. Thanks again for the awesome communication! Susan


Hi! Susan--that's wonderful news!! :wave2: Keeping my fingers crossed for you. I think it was a good idea to divide the crate and give him a comfortable bedding. I would go easy on the treats, make sure they are all natural and safe. As you know our breed has very sensitive system. How long has Panda been on meds? Keep us posted and tell us how he's doing.

[Susan Bacon]

Maria, Thanks--although it's way too soon for congratulations yet. It's only been a day, after all! Let's talk in another month or two.... Panda's been on meds for a week with one more week to go. Today was his last day on a bland, Canine ID diet. I've started to reward him with tiny bites of Iams puppy biscuits today when he potties. The vet said he'd be fine to go back to his Eukanuba puppy food tomorrow. Thanks for your help and support!

[Maria Juliano]

Susan--Why wasn't Panda's Coccidia detected when you took him for his 1st visit to the vet's? Most vets run this test routinely when a new puppy is brought in for a health exam. Both my shih tzus had it when I brought them home. It was just a small # but it was detected right away.

I feel that Panda is not 100% well yet ( since he's still on meds. ) When he's finished with his meds, make sure you take a stool sample to be sure the parasites are all gone. I bet his housetraining will be easier then. Besides, some dogs take longer than others to housetrain. I'm still working on Giotto who is a bit more consistent going outside than Lina, she prefers the pad. Don't despair...Panda will soon know what you want him to do. Hang in there!

Another thought, Eukanuba is not a well balanced food. If I were you, I would switched them to a better brand. Check: www.naturapet.com (http://www.naturapet.com/) to do a food comparison.

[Susan Bacon]

Maria,
Unfortunately, I tried out a "mobile housecalls" vet when we first got Panda. She showed up and checked his teeth and heartbeat, but that was the extent of her exam. She also offered to train him and Beans for us for a week at her "boarding school." Sounded great to us for $350. She said she could housetrain him that quickly, but we started wondering how that could be if she were running a busy mobile practice..... We actually hired her for later that week @ $60/hr. She spent most of the hour on her cell phone with her secretary as she led Beans around the house on a choke collar, then gave him a bath to show us how to desensitize his fear aggresions toward bathing. My husband and I both started thinking WE were the ones taking a bath! The final straw came 3 weeks later when she returned for Panda's final shots. She "accidentally" gave him a 2nd rabies vac. This was the day after his diahrrea started and she told me she wouldn't be able to do a fecal exam until that night because she was sooooo busy and just to give him a little Pepto and call her if it persisted. At that point she was sooooo fired! The next day I went to a real vet and got the coccidia diagnosis, cancelled her out on training boot camp. Hey, I do appreciate the Natura site and the advice on Panda and Beans condition. Stool seems okay in Panda today with going back to Eukanuba, but Beans' got runny again. We can't get Natura where I live--I checked the big debate on foods though--I can get Natural BAlance or Nutro. I thank you so much for your help and am sorry this got so long. Beware of Bad Vets is my hard lesson. Someday Panda WILL get this and I appreciate your support.

[Maria Juliano]

Susan--It just seem strange ( after doing the math, age wise ) that a vet would not detect the Coccidia. Anyways, I'm glad you got rid of the Bad Mobile, quack doc, jack of all trades, money hungry, so called trainer. I feel so bad for little Panda, Beans and you. :( Did you mentioned the 2nd rabies vaccine to your vet? This sounds dangerous to me. I would post this question in the Holistic Section and address it to Samantha Aiden, she is the Holistic Advisor ( an excellent expert ) who can perhaps give you some suggestions as to how to detox Panda from the effects of the 2nd rabies shot.
As for Beans loose stools, what has worked for my babies was a mixture of boiled rice, white rice for 3 days. I would not give them treats if they are having loose stools or diahrrea.
My shih tzus have been eating Innova Puppy food by Natura from the moment they came home, i just switched them to Innova Adult formula and they are doing very well. I do not feeed them any treats that have sugar, salt, addictives, fillers, wheat ( they are allergic to it ). I read the labels even if the packaging says it's all natural. If it's no human grade, I stay away.
These are the foods I would consider Super Premium dog food:
Wellness, Paul Newman's, Chicken Soup for the Pet Lover's Soul, Drs Foster & Smith,
California Natural by Natura, Karma also by Natura, Blue Buffalo. and a few more that at this moment don't come to mind. :shrug:

One more thing, when you decide to switch their food, do it over a period of 7-10 days. 1st day, 90% old food, 10 % new, 2nd day, 80%old, 20% new and so on until the last day 100% new food.

I hope this helps some what. Let me know how your cuties are doing and all the best wishes for a speedy recovery.

[/QUOTE]

[Susan Bacon]

Awesome! THanks Maria! I was VERY concerned over the 2nd rabies vaccination, obviously. And VERY pissed off. Obviously. Our 2nd vet said it wouldn't cause an overdose, even with the coccidia complications. I do trust him a lot--he's been our vet for 4 dogs now, but since we moved across town I thought I'd try the FRAUD--big mistake. That was a week ago and I don't think it's caused complications for Panda--just rage for us!

I especially appreciate your tips on changing foods. I knew to mix them, but the ratios were not something I was so aware of. I'm out the door to the pet store right now.... We're doing better and Panda's been peeing all day. Outside! I appreciate you very much--thanks for your selfless interest in our babies.
Susan

[Marsha]

I mentioned this in your other thread, but Spanky went in his crate, too. He was from the pound and kept in a pen, so I thought that might have been why. Anyway, we quickly learned that he would go on the blanket or towel we had in the crate and push it into a corner. He was also going on rugs, dog mats, dog pillows, throws, etc., that we had around the house. We had to pick all of these things up around the house, and we had to keep the blankets and towels....any padding.....out of his crate for a long time. After he had gone a couple of months with just the hard floor of the crate to sleep on but keeping it dry, we tried a towel in the bottom of the crate again. Within a few days, he had wet it. It took a long time before we could put anything in the crate for him to sleep on, but he is finally at that point. He's 10 months old now, and he's had padding in his crate for a month or 2.