Wow.

[Kimberly Lyons]

I am on several other forums, most of them non dog related, and I happened to post a thread asking if anyone there had heard of or used Bark Busters. Well, some of them had, and I was asking about Ozzys on lead dog dog aggression, and they all assured me that all I had to do was get dominance over him, correct him, and "dominate the heck out of him every time this aggressive behavior starts up". I said something about violence begating violence and I want my dog to associate positive things with meeting other dogs, not being corrected by me, and these were some of the responses I got.

" 'I prefer not to correct a dog for aggression. Violence begats violence as it were. '

But your dog isn't a human...it's a pack animal. "

The first quote on there is mine.

"violence does not beget violence in the canine world.

when I was in Richmond a lot of the pit bulls from the Vick fiasco were being adopted out. they were showing up at the dog parks. I watched the handlers who had been trained by the SPCA control their dogs. in absolutely every instance, any aggressive action resulted in the dog being spun around onto their backs with the owner taking an extremely aggressive stance over them and dominating the dog.

I have owned Newfies for almost 20 years. they are a VERY large dog, granted they are mostly very passive, but they are big, I have and will at any time be the alpha bitch to my dogs. I simulate biting them when I am correcting bad behaviour. it gets an IMMEDIATE response!

no, you are thinking like a human not a dog.

you show you are the alpha, and correct your dog showing him that you take on any aggression roles "

That was someone else. If that is true about the Vick dogs, then I think they may have gone from one bad situation, to one that is marginally better. And if they have owned Newfies for twenty years, then I know more about dog training in my own four years of working with German Shepherd.

Every time I hear about Alpha rolling it makes me cringe inside. Its stupid, wrong, misinformation, and it makes me furious that it is widely accepted common knowledge. So many dog bites could be prevented by simply eliminating that one thing from everyone repitoire.

Oh, and this was my response to someones post, and the above response is what I got after posting this.

"Still, with on leash aggression, the dog is afraid of the other dog, he bluffing by making himself big and bad and scary looking. Now if I come along, and as soon as he sees the other dog and starts his antics, I correct him, the dog is more than likely not going to stop how hes acting, but its probably going to reinforce in his mind that other dogs, when met on leash, are dangerous, so now, not only is he worrying about the other dog, hes worrying about his owner, who is going to attack him as soon as he sees another dog."

I thought it sounded plausible, but apparently it doesnt fit in with the pack animal theory. Or whatever it is. It makes me ill.

[Luciann]

that is sickening to read about Kimberly.....

You are doing a great job with Ozzie and those others through ignorance are mistreating their animals...no they are not human but they do have feelings and a brain and they do use it.....

[Alberta Hanko]

Kimberly - I am glad you were on those forums to speak for the dogs--because what you said was true.

When I adopted Linus, who was just 5 months old, we went to traditional obedience school. No alpha rolling (even I would have stopped at that), but alot of leash popping, corrections, even spraying with lemon juice and water. Here was this poor young dog, who barely knew me, being corrected because he barked back at a large dog (who was very dog aggressive) who decided she hated him. Finally, after putting my poor Linus through this torture for 10 weeks, the other dog came through the door, my dog lost his mind, flipped shrieked, and bit (no skin broken) me in the back of the leg. Poor guy could not trust me to handle the situation. That was the beginning of Linus' dog aggression. It took a long time, and lots of positive reinforcement and help from this group, and a good trainer to earn Linus' trust.

Alberta & Linus

[muttsrbest]

I am so glad to read your comments. I hired Bark Busters because my Taylor (sheltie mix) bit my puppie Reggie in the face and it required stitches. Our Vet recommended calling the guy she has used. Now I am afraid by everyone's comments that I have made huge mistake. The guy from Bark Busters does not use the alpha role. He taught us to use the correction chain. He advised that we give a correction with the chain if our dog acts aggressive or pulls on the lead when approached by another dog or human. Am I teaching my dog to behave, or am I just reinforcing his fears? I have a gut feeling that I am reinforcing his fears based on everyone's comments in this thread. The bark buster guy said that correcting my dog in this manner lets my dog know that I am in control. He said my dog's issue was that he thought he had to protect me and took the alpha role. So, if I show my dog that I am in control, it will give my dog more confidence. Although I agree with the theory, I am afraid that he is wrong about the method of showing my dog I am in control. I don't want to make my Taylor more fearful or aggressive. I do want my Taylor to learn that I am in control and that he does not have to protect me. I love my Taylor so much and I don't want to make matters worse. I am anxiously looking forward to your reply. Thank you

[TimberWolf]

It's so true that people think aggression equal dominance. It's very much not true. Let's put it this way in the human world.

Scenario #1: You have a boss who's got a big temper. Yells at anyone that doesn't do their job the way he wants it, through some sort of hissy fit and tells the person they are to not skip their lunch break and get the job done right.

Scenario #2: You have a boss who's even tempered and does not like to raise his voice. Corrects anyone that does not do the job the way he wants using positive words encouraging the correct way he'd like things done.

In which scenario do you think even a human would respond to the best and continue to work efficiently with? That's right. Scenario #2. We may not be dogs, but they respond to someone that knows what they are doing, corrects the behaviors using positive reinforcement. If done right, that +R training is extremely effective. ...something I have to learn to do better actually since I was raise old school thinking.

In those scenarios, #1 people would do their job because they want their lunch break and to get paid, but they are afraid of their boss and will only do what he asks and nothing more. They'll talk about him behind his back and disrespect him when they can get away with it. Fewer people get raises because the boss isn't getting what he wants. People stay home sick even when they aren't sick making the office run less efficiently. No one is rewarded for the things they do because the boss is focusing on the incorrect things they do. No one feels appreciated. Office is not going to run smoothly.

In scenario #2: people with that boss will want to make him happy and do their work the best they can making life so much easier for all of them. Maybe their boss will treat them more to office dinners and bonuses as rewards. The boss will be more lenient when there is an emergency with one of his employee's personal life. People get raises. The boss is happy and there is respect pouring out of everyone's ears. The office runs smoothly and efficiently because everyone is happy and fewer corrections are needed.

Dogs will do the same thing. Appreciate the good things they do and they'll want to do more. Focus on their bad behavior and they'll only give you what you ask for and nothing more. It won't stick for long because they feel unappreciated for the good things they DO do for you. They start to only focus on their bad behavior and ways to avoid it, but they have little to no incentive to correct their own behaviors because they know they will get nothing for it. They won't know it's what you wanted all along. Dogs will disrespect you only because they just don't know what they can do, only what they can't do. It doesn't mean they don't love you and don't want to please you, but you give them a limited view of the rules of your household, they don't really have much to go on. Their so-called-pack leader is not aggressive, but is someone that is sure of themselves and confident. Firm when needed but very appreciative of the dogs in his or her family. No need to bite, growl, or attack for small indiscretions, only correct what is not wanted behavior in the family.

It sounds like the people you have come across is not aware of how things are really done in a dog pack and is thinking what is done in a human pack. Your pets are dogs not people. Think like they think and don't make up rules that fit your idea of what makes a dog a dog. It's usually wrong unless you really study them. (you in general, not you as in Kimberly you...)

[Alberta Hanko]

Great way of explaining this TimberWolf, I liked it!

As for Reggie & Taylor, are both of your dogs on NILIF?

http://www.doggiebagonline. com/forum/showthread.php?t=304 5

Since Taylor seems to have some agression issues, and you are doing the right thing by funding a trainer, go to:

www.apdt.com and/or
http://www.ccpdt.org/rstr/index.html

and look for a trainer in your area. I found one for my Linus, aggressive, both to people and other dogs, and it's all fear based, and she has helped us so much. I interviewed one guy by phone--he said I should watch Cesar Milan on tv (this is when I asked about his training methods) and that is how he trains--needless to say I did not give him any more thought. I kept looking until I found someone who uses positive reinforcement. One thing she taught me was positive is not permissive :pomwag:, Linus can't sit and be at the table, nor pull on his leash to get to where he wants to go. He needs to sit politely to go out, lay on his mat at dinner, and walk nicely next to me. But we do not use a choke collar, I don't like them. As you so rightly say, it is hard to yank on a dog when he is feeling insecure, and giving off an aggressive display, and expect him to feel better about whatever it is that is upsetting him. Let's say you see a huge spider, and you are really afraid of them, you do not want to take your eyes off of it. I want you to look at me, and not pay any attention to that ugly spider, so I grab you and yank you around. Now you become hysterical and start screaming, because you now that spider is moving closer, and also, I have scared you.

I'll get back to this in bit, have to run over to my work for a bit.

Alberta & Linus

[Alberta Hanko]

Have you read "Feeling Outnumbered--How to Manage and Enjoy your Multi-Dog Household"? If not, it's quite inexpensive, and does a good job of coming up with suggestions. You can get it new on Amazon for around $10.00:

http://www.amazon.com/Feeling-Outnumbered-Manage-Multi-Dog-Household/dp/1891767062/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1205707355&sr=1-1

One that I liked is to keep the insecure one (in your case Taylor)in a room with you while you are doing something (such as writing to Doggie Bag on your computer :D) and ignore him while you do whatever you are doing. Have some high value treats with you, but out of the way. Let Reggie into the room after Taylor has had this boring 1/2 an hour with you and from the time Reggie comes into the room, give Taylor these high value treats while whoever is holding Reggie will give him some lower value treats that he likes for just doing a calm walk through. Do this maye once a day. While you are training them, I would work them separately until each one has whatever you are working on down strongly. See if you can work with each of them maybe 5 minute sessions 2-3 x per day, and get them out for leash walks together.

For fight problems, prevention is the key. Interrupt as soon as you see anything happening that doesn't look friendly--and don't feel bad about this. Err on the cautious side. If Taylor learns that fighting gets Reggie out of his face, it will become stronger. If he learns the behavior is unacceptable, by you sending him to his mat, crate or place, it is so much better. He will learn in time that his mat is a great place to go to. Melissa set up some great mat training. Here's the link:

http://www.doggiebagonline. com/forum/showthread.php?t=379 9

Scroll down to the bottom and print it out. For now work on it with each dog separately.

Have you tried any clicker training?

Alberta & Linus

[Lesly Stevens]

How sad. Violence does beget violence, and the worst thing you can do with a dog-aggressive dog is to use corrections. Desensitization and counterconditioning is far more effective, and keeps your relationship with your dog intact. I want my dogs to trust me, and to look to me for guidance when they are unsure. My Beau would have ended up put down for his dog aggression, but thankfully, his owner let me take him. Had I used force and corrections, I would have lost this dog. Today, he is a healthy, happy, well adjusted dog, who is kind to all the foster dogs I bring home (well, at least he doesn't try to eat them! LOL there were a couple he did not like at all - and with good reason. Still, he was not aggressive toward them)!

Lesly,
Maddy, Beau, & Luc!

[muttsrbest]

Thank you to all for your advice. I am in tears now and feel so relieved to have found kind people like you all! It hurts my heart to know that I may have been sending my Taylor boy the wrong message. Now I just have to convince my husband that the methods you have all suggested will be better. I am sick to my stomach that I spend $650 for the Bark Busters trainer. Well, I had good intentions and I thought what he said made sense. I guess some of what he said made sense, but his method of one style of training fits all does not make sense. I guess I was ignorant about this next item I am going to discuss. I thought that it was ok for Taylor to growl at Reggie to let Reggie know to back off. I thought it was a normal way that dogs communicate since they don't talk like humans. I thought when Taylor growled at Reggie that it was like a human saying "hey, leave me alone!" If I understand correctly, I should not let Taylor get away with growling at Reggie? What if I am not around to see Reggie playing too rough and Taylor needs to communicate in some way to Reggie to leave him alone? Of course, I have them in my sight almost always. By the way, when I say that Reggie plays too rough, I don't mean that he is aggressive in any way shape or form. Reggie is just a big boy and still a puppy full of crazy energy. And since Reggie is so much bigger weight-wise, he could accidently hurt Taylor. I wonder how I can teach Reggie to be more gentle? Or, is it just a phase and once Reggie gets a little older, he won't play as hard? To answer your question about clicker training, we did start out with that with Taylor when he was a pup, but never really followed through on it. I guess it is because after awhile, Taylor did what we told him without the clicker. But I do admit, we have not yet mastered the recall. Taylor will come when he wants to. Since Taylor was our first dog, we made a bunch of mistakes and we spoiled him. However, since Taylor is such an intelligent dog, I am sure we can turn him around. I think I am running out of space..lol..I will have to come back later

[muttsrbest]

I have heard of the NILIF and we have started to use it. Consistency is the key. Believe it or not, my husband is more of a softie than me and I have to keep reminding him to stick with it. Both of us have to be consistent on this one. I guess it is not much different than parents of human babies..LOL Both parents have to work together. Anyway, looks like we have a lot of work to do. I like the idea of the mat training. I need to also practice the loose leash walking. I live in Phoenix, AZ and let me tell you, our summers are crazy hot. So, my husband walks them in the morning. Hopefully I can convince him to use the loose leash methods. My husband usually just lets them run free in the big wash back behind our house. They love the freedom to roam around, but I tell my husband, we still need to get them to walk nice on the leash! I also have to work on the recall with Taylor. Taylor can be a little tricky because even with his favorite treat (cooked chicken), he may not come when called. Taylor is not as food oriented as Reggie is. Oh boy, I have a lot of work to do. I think I just need to take baby steps and prioritize what is most important and work my way down. For now, I think the top goal is to prevent Taylor's aggression towards Reggie. I like the idea of loading Taylor up with treats when Reggie is near by. The next difficult task is to convince my husband of the methods you all have suggested. Wish me luck.

[Alberta Hanko]

Lucky Taylor and Reggie--you are doing great.

If I understand correctly, I should not let Taylor get away with growling at Reggie?

Since Taylor bit Reggie hard enough that he needed stitches, prevention if important at this point. Your question is a good one, because it is one I never realized until I adopted my Linus. I always thought growling was a bad thing, you are ahead of where I was back then. If Taylor is growling at Reggie, he is issuing a warning, and I really love the warning, so no you don't want to punish Taylor. You will always want to hear the growl, rather than have him go from quiet to a full on attack. At that point I would distract Reggie to something else besides driving Talor over the top ;). Reggie will learn, by you helping him that he can't always be on top of Taylor, Taylor will need his space.

If you work with Taylor on his recall in the most boring room in the house--in mine that's the livingroom, and call him to you until he s doing it 95% of the time. Then move to the next room, and start again. Have a party when he flys to you (maybe 10 teeny pieces of chicken) then the next time one or two or three, mix it up. You and you DH can ahve a relay, where you each stand at end of the room, and call Taylor, really having a ball as he is sucessful. Does he like to play ball, because if he does use the ball as a treat.

Linus and Bella run around here in my yard, an acre, freely most of the time, but I do use the leashes even in the yard oftentimes, which teaches them tolisten to me as we go out the door, through the gate because otherwise the two of them will take off like race horses (or as Timberwolf so aptly descibes it: releasing a bunch of dizzy greyhounds in a race

Let us know how everything is going, ask away if you have any questions or need any help with clicker training, or any training. We will love to hear what works for your dogs, because for sure we all have to adapt training to suit our dogs, and how you are using your training skills. And of course what isn't working.

Alberta & Linus

[muttsrbest]

Thank you again for the advice. We have been distracting Reggie when Taylor growls at him because poor sweet Reggie just doesn't understand yet that means leave me alone ( or perhaps Reggie is just persistent because just adores Taylor and always wants to be near him). Hmmm, another interesting thing, Taylor never learned to play fetch. He will chase the ball and bring it back, but forget about giving it back. We tried so hard to teach him to "give" but he just wouldn't. We used treats and praise and all that. Maybe we just gave up too soon. Reggie loves to play fetch. He returns with the ball and I taught him to drop the ball on the chair. Don't know how I did that...LOL Anyway, Taylor is really such a unique dog compared to other dogs I've met. He is almost like a cat-dog. He doesn't like water and he grooms himself like a cat. Just like a cat, he will come when he wants to. He is a finicky eater and we have worked very hard to keep the weight on him. He loves to catch lizards and bring them in the house. He even springs up on the couch like a cat. Very amusing! Anyway, I seem to be rambling here. I will let you know how the training goes. Oh by the way, I was reading a post the other day and I should have tagged it. Maybe you could help me find it? It was a member, I think female, and she said that she had five dogs and added a new member. Her daschund didn't like the newbie and would growl at him while the other would do a funny play bow. That is just like my Taylor and Reggie. What a coincidence. By chance to remember this post? I think it was a recent one. Thanks again.

[Alberta Hanko]

That was an easy one, glad to help.

http://www.doggiebagonline. com/forum/showthread.php?p=268 27#post26827

If you clik on her name, you can find all posts by Zabrina222.

Alberta & Linus