Switching to semi-raw

[Lauren Frisbie]

Hey guys! I am a first time dog owner and I am in the process of going holistic. My problem is food though(who's isn't?..lol) When I first got Whiskey, he was on Iams for about two seconds. He really wouldn't eat it. Then we switched to Nutro Max puppy. He did ok on that, but after a couple months he started to refuse it. So, we switched to Merrick(just last week) However, I have been reading all about raw food diets. My only problem is I am a vegetarian and I CANNOT deal with the sight or smell of raw meat.(i could do raw veggies...lol) I know I know, I'm super picky. I think I could manage to serve him cooked meat(like have my mom cook it beforehand) I am no doggie expert so I'm not sure if it's ok to feed cooked. I'm sure it is not as good as raw, but anythings better than kibble ;) Also, if I do it I have no idea what kinds of meat to use. All the things I have seen say lean ground meat. Well I have no clue! lol! So, if anyone could help guide me I'd would be so appreciative. Thanks guys, Lauren Oh, by the way, Whiskey is a 2.8 lb Silky Terrier and he's six months old. :p

[Summer Magic]

There are several manufacturers that have a freeze dried raw diet for dogs. Just google it under freeze dried raw diet and you'll have loads of info to wade through.

[Missy Stewart]

Hi! My name is Missy and I have a 1 year old JRT that has been on a raw diet since he was around 16 weeks old. I'm somewhat unsure on how to effectively respond to this post since you are leery of actually using raw meat... but perhaps I could give you a few really good reasons to consider trying.

If you really want to cook your dogs food, it may still be better than feeding kibble. But here is some food for thought! Below is an excerpt from the book Raw Dog Food by Carina Beth MacDonald: I am literally typing this word for word out of my book!

Question: I'm a vegetarian - can I really do this?

Answer: Certainly! You probably already give some thought to an appropriate diet for yourself and your family - this is exactly what you're going to do for your dog, and good for you! Honestly, handling the meats gest quite easy after a while. Since most of what you get will be human grade product, it will not be terribly messy. Besides, this is what meat eaters in the wild do - even many fish eat other fish. Assuming you haven't been feeding your dog a vegetarin diet up to now, consider this a much more honest and appropriate way of feeding than pouring kibble into the dish.

I'm sure you have also asked yourself the difference between cooking meat for your dog and feeding it raw. Here is an online excerpt on some of the differences:

RAW VERSUS COOKED
The basic concept behind a raw food diet, in both humans and animals, is that raw foods contain their nutrients in an unaltered state.


Nutrient categories include:
- Proteins (amino acids)
- Fats (lipids)
- Minerals
- Vitamins
- Water


When raw foods are cooked or denatured in any way, the optimal value of nutrition is reduced, lost or destroyed. Raw foods possess the maximum value of these essential nutrients.

Because raw foods are easier to digest, the body can focus on carrying out other important functions, such as supplying oxygen to the blood. When a dog's metabolism is functioning optimally, it's body is better prepared to fight disease and heal injuries.

There is a lot of other info on the benefits of feeding raw over cooked foods. This is just one example!

Another common fear in using raw meat is that of bacteria. I'm not trying to downplay the severity of salmonella poising, etc. But our society as a whole is almost freakishly compulsive about killing germs and maintaing a sterilized living enviroment. Our dogs bodies are built VERY different from our own, and are capable of processing levels of bacteria that humans are not. Here is just one excerpt from a BARF website on Salmonella poising and dogs:

I'm really concerned about salmonella. Am I over-reacting?

When first starting BARF, many people were actually overly compulsive and obsessive with regards to possible salmonella poisoning. In fact, I was one of them. I wore latex gloves when handling the chicken and I never allowed one tiny piece of chicken to touch ANYTHING in my kitchen. I was totally neurotic. After a couple of weeks of BARF, I began to relax a bit. I now use my bare hands when handling and practice proper food handling techniques. Knock on wood, none of my dogs or family members have gotten sick. To this day though, I won't allow ANYONE into my kitchen when I'm wrapping 80 pounds of chicken backs....NOT UNTIL I'M DONE and everything's been wiped down with Mr. Clean, Antibacterial full-strength (yes, it even kills salmonella). :>)

According to an FDA news release, "salmonella is not harmful to dogs". The message? Salmonella is everywhere - not just in raw meats. Employ basic hygiene practices, wash your hands and keep surfaces clean - just as you would when handling your own food. Simple, really!

Below is a link given on more salmonella freindly info ;)
http://www.njboxers.com/Question.htm

A dogs digestive tract is very short and acidic. It is built to pass food quickly through while killing harmful bacterial. This is VERY different from our own digestive systems as humans, and a good reason as to why we suffer from bacterial poisening at rates MUCH higher than that of dogs!

You of course are free to do what you want with your dog! If you are truely that uncomfortable with using raw meat, try cooking it for a while. You may gradually warm up to the idea of simply feeding it raw. I'm not a big meat eater myself, but I have found that cooking meat fills my house up with the smell off beef much more so than dropping a raw meal into Sonny's food dish ;) Trust me, you can't smell it within the minute that it takes your dog to gobble it down!

I actually supplement Sonny's meals with green tripe (I use this instead of vegetables)!!! If you are not familiar with tripe, it is the partially digested insides of a cows stomach. It smells like a pungent mixture of manure and vomit! He thrives off of it, and I have to plug my nose to keep from puking! IT IS AWEFUL!!! I have stood in my kitchen for over an hour slicing up and vacume sealing over 20 pounds of the stuff!!! AFter a while, you just get use to it. And after seeing the amazing difference in your dog, you become willing to sacrifice your senses ;)

In formualting your dogs diet (however you choose to do it), keep the following in mind. You will need a percentage of meat/bone-(calcium) mixture, a small amount of raw organ meat as well as pulped veggies. I have substitued green tripe for veggies for many reasons. But many have had success with using pulped vegetables. If you ever get brave enough to use tripe, NEVER buy the bleached stuff in the grocery store. All of the fabulous digestive enzymes, etc have been processed right out of it. It is not the same! (and smells much better!) I have also supplemented with a good fish body oil that is free of mercury and other known contaminants. I usually give a 1000 mg liquid gell 2-3 times per week.

Since cooked bones should NOT be fed, I'm not sure what the most effective way to add calcium into your dogs diet would be if you chose to cook the meat. When I feed Sonny, I feed either a mixture of a raw ground meat/bone. Or I feed a whole prey item such as a chicken leg, neck, etc. These bones are raw, and he has never had any problems with eating or digesting them. You can buy a bonemeal poweder.. but I have always heard that it does not compare to actually using a good raw bone source.

If you are interested in reading up more on raw feeding, just let me know. I could reccomend a lot of good books! Do what you feel comfortable with, but also keep in mind the needs of your dog ;) Feel free to ask me any questions, I spent a lot of time researching raw before I chose to switch Sonny to it.

[Missy Stewart]

Also, I noticed that you asked about what kinds of meat to feed. Currently in Sonny's freezer I have beef, chicken, pheasant, quail, duck, rabbit, buffalo, turkey, lamb, and tripe! You CERTAINLY do not need to have this many meats, but it just shows that your choices are endless. I have also used kangaroo meat, ostrich, venison, and other odd meats! The more protein sources that you can build your dog up onto, the better! ;) If you would be interested in buying pre-prepared mixes (less work for you) I could give you a few good sites. The shipping can be rough, but often you can find a distributor in your area.

Sonny is my first dog also! I am an IU student, and live an apartment with the little guy. Trust me, I NEVER pictured myself feeding like this. (I put his freezer in my walk in closet!!!!) But it has worked miracles with him and has solved the health issues that his conventional vet told me would take a lifetime of medication and prescription diets! I really do wish you luck, and I think it is great that you are trying to find the best option for your dog!

[Lauren Frisbie]

Thank you so much for your invaluable information. I am contemplating it. My problem is that I gag and sometimes vomit at the sight of it. Actually just thinking about it right now makes my stomach turn. I have always been like that and my whole familly eats meat...lol. I want to give him the best, but I don't think I can do raw. My friend actually thought I was kidding about the whole vomit with raw meat. Until she stuck ground beef in my face...lol....needle ss to say, she wasn't laughing. Well, I'd like to give pre-packaged a look, but I am on a budget. I will check it out though. So, if I did cook the meat, could I do something like ground chicken, beef, turkey etc., with bonemeal, brown rice, and veggies(raw) or something to that effect? Would that work? Thanks again for your help, Lauren

[Grace Erick]

Lauren, I'm not a real meat eater myself and hate to handle meat when I cook for my husband, so I understand how you feel.

If you are on a low budget, I believe the raw foods are expensive. They say they go a long way, but I think it's still expensive.

Now for homemade, it's kind of tricky. You need to find a good recipe book that gives you different recipes and alternatives in each recipe if you want to change it up. The thing is, I'm not so sure the books really are correct in how they make a recipe up and if it's really balanced. They say it is, but I have two books out of the library and they both differ on ingredients, so one has to be wrong. Bonemeal is tricky too. Too much is not good for your dog. Your suggestion for a homemade meal sounds right on target, but you have to know what portions the rice vs. veggies vs. meat have to be in. Then my book recommends vitamins for homemade food and really good ones that are stronger for homemade meals as opposed to canned which has at least the minimal amounts of vitamins and only needs a mild supplement. There must be two kinds??? My book mentions adding in fruit too with the fruits and veggies being blended so it's a puree and more digestible since dog's don't really chew their food well.

I cook my dog a chicken stew w/potatoes/broccoli and carrots for a few days. It doesn't have all the vitamins, but 3 days of this food won't harm her and it gives her a break from canned food. I do buy her the best canned foods that have little grain like Merrick's Grammy's Pot Pie which is grainless, and Natural Balance that I think just has brown rice and canned Innova which I think has one grain.

I think when people want to feed raw they don't feed grains do they? Innova makes Evo which is a grainless hard food that sometimes seems too rich and gives dogs diarreah, especially if you don't blend it with the old food. It's very high in protein at 42% or so. It makes me wonder why it's so high.

[Missy Stewart]

I do not see why it wouldent... Just be sure that you do use some sort of calcium source. And as long as your dog does not suffer from allergies, it should not be a problem using grain-like sources such as rice. I personally do not use any grains, but other people have without problems.

Also, make sure that if you are cooking meat (and yes, as far as I know you can cook any meat)... you do not feed a piece that contains cooked bones! These bones can splinter and cause problems for your dog. I know that Pitcairns book has both cooked and raw diet variations. If you want a basic source... you could check it out. Here is a link if you are interested.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0875962432/qid=1112583230/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xg l14/103-4120335-3808640?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Also, if you are intersted in pre-packaged raw diets (these are MUCH easier to handle) try these sites. I have actually used all of them at one time or another, so they are good.

http://www.amorepetfoods.co m/

http://www.rawadvantagepetf ood.com/

http://www.naturesvariety.c om/content.lasso?page=1 137&-session=naturesvarie ty:0CD2DB0009d7134AC 1gMy1DB671D

http://www.omaspride.com/

I can buy the nature's variety here in town. I have a distributor (about 45 minutes away) that I have bought the Oma's Pride from, and the rest of I swallowed shipping prices on.

In all honesty (when I buy mainly mixes) I probably spend around $70.00 - $80.00 a month on Sonny's food (he is a 15 pound dog). It can be done cheaper... but this is the easier route (especially if you are queasy around meat!).

Nature's variety does sell a freeze dried raw diet. I use this as a training treat! Sonny loves it. A 12 oz bag will run you about $25.00, so it really is not all that in-expensive. I have never fed it as a diet... but it would probably run around $50.00 a month for a small dog.

Feel free to ask any other questions,

Hope this helps :dogrun:

[Lauren Frisbie]

Well, I think I have decided! :D :D :D I'm gonna go with cooked. I will not feed any cooked bones. Thanks for that info. I'm pretty confident about it, except for the balancing part. I need to figure that out before I start! So, a couple questions:

1. If I'm buying beef, what percentage fat do I buy. I think they come in all different, but I don't know. I've heard my mom talking about percentage of fat. Is that important?

2. Where can I buy bonemeal?

3. Any good book recomendations(other than the ones you've given me :p) to check the balancing part of this.
I'm actually pretty confident, although, I need a little bit more researching before I can start...lol. Thanks guys for all the help and for all the future help...lol...~Lauren

[Missy Stewart]

I have bought bonemeal powder at our local health food store. It really was not hard to find. And was also fairly in-expensive.

I would probably stick with leaner meats.. but to tell you the truth, I usually order Sonny's meat, so I am really not sure what % lean the meat is.

I'm not sure if you are familiar with Amazon. But try doing a search on their site for dog-food cookbookes. Amazon is HUGE, and will most likely give you a lot of hits. The other good thing about Amazon is that the site offers a lot of consumer reviews for each book that you look at.

I wish I had more advice on recipies.. but I have never actually made any, so I really do not know how to help. Amazon will probably be your best bet! ;) They also have great prices!

Just keep in mind that the highest percentage of your dogs meal should be meat. You will have veggies, and you may use some grain sources, but the bulk of it should be meat. If you find a good book... it should help you in proportioning the bone meal powder, as well as any supplements that may be needed.

Good luck!! :D

[Lauren Frisbie]

I can't say thank you enough! Your information has been invaluable! Whiskey and I thank you very much! We're excited to get started! :D We will keep you posted on our progress! Thanks, Lauren and Whiskey

[aussiesmum]

Lauren,

We too are exploring all of this. I decided when aussie was a wee thing that we'd do the home cooked thing because it is better and because we cook almost everything from scratch for ourselves. Haven't gotten around to it because I am currently unemployeed (new job starting end of this month) and the cost was just something we had to consider.

I went over all of this at DD with Susan and she recommened a great book:
Home Prepared Dog and Cat Diets by Donald Srombeck. This book has a great section of the ideas about dog feeding and what is and isn't important in their diet. Then it has a mamoth section of diets that are specifically calculated. If you are going the home cooked way, please get a book like this one which really goes into how much and what you should feed your dog. We chose the best dog food we can because we want to do the best for our babies. Shouldn't be any diffrent for the home cooked way.

And antoher great thing is they have vegitarian diets for your pup (well, some you do have to add canned sardines, but hey, much better to just open a can than cook the meat). But I see diets here "Cottage Cheese and Macaroni Diet" or "Egg and Rice Diet" as well as completely vegitarian diets like "Tofua nd rice diet" or "tofu and potato diet" (and it says the veg diets are usually less expensive than the meat diets).

Best of luck.

[Ann Morscher]

When we got Misty she was being fed a raw diet. It was just not for me even though I knew the benefits of trying it. The breeder also talked with me about the dehyrated foods that you could add raw meat to if you wanted or the diet was balanced enough as it is. I used the Honest Kitchen and was really happy with the food. Misty loved it. I would feed kibble in the morning and night and then the Honest kitchen food at noon. This was working so well for us. Unfortunatley we had to stop feeding it since she had some urniary problems and we had to go to prescription food for awhile. Once I am sure the infection is gone for good, I will go back to Honest Kitchen.

They have 4 different formulas and came highly recommended to me.

Here is the link if you want to take a look. http://www.thehonestkitchen .com/

Ann

[Missy Stewart]

You know I have also heard about vegetarian diets for dogs. I think the key in these would be to make sure that the non-meat foods that you would be feeding your dog would be high in protein - which would normally come from the meat in the diet.

I have a lot of books that talk about diet. I know that some of them have mentioned dogs that have done well on vegetarian diets, but I also know that Martin Goldstein, in his book the nature of animal healing, spoke of cases where vegetarian dogs became VERY ill (and some even died) from the diets not meeting their needs. I personally lean towards dogs being carnivoures. Some argue that dogs are omnivores (mainly b/c the first thing they eat out of a prey animal is the partially digested insides of the stomach (hence the tripe that I feed ;) ) and not the meat. The dog will then typically eat out any disirable organ meat and then will eat the meat/bones. While I can see some validity in the argument, I would have a hard time lableing a dog as an omnivore and feeding it as such. But that is just my take on things ;)

One other thing to keep in mind. Some dogs do not tolerate dairy well. Keep an eye on your dog when you first start to introduce foods like cottage cheese or yogurt. Sonny could not handle these foods and bit at himself obsessively after eating it. Dairy is a common allegen in dogs, as well as eggs, so just keep an eye on things.

Also, if at all possible, it is great if you can use organic. It is more expensive, but I look for things on sale and freeze it. Organic produce/meats are so much better than conventional for a lot of reasons. Organic meats are farmed without the use of antibiotics and steriods. The animals are often grass fed and free range (meaning that they are not pinned up ALL the time). Organic vegetables are also much better b/c they are grown in more nutrient rich soil and are not sprayed with conventional pesticides. These vegetables are actually higher in vitamin content than veggies that are non-organic. I'm not sure how much organic is available in the area that you live, but try checking it!! It's worth it!

[Lauren Frisbie]

Yep, we will definitely be going the organic route. I already eat 90% organic so it's not that big of a deal. Thanks for the books guys, I"m going on ebay today to buy them! ~Lauren