Kind of upset

[Marne Benner]

Hi everyone!
I'm hoping that you might have some suggestions to help me deal with a little problem I have recently encountered, but bare with me, because it might take me a bit to try and explain.
I run a daycare out of my home and I just recently started watching a little girl, who is in grade two. She comes to my home after school. Anyway, Mickey has taken a dislike to this child. This has really shocked me, because Mickey gets along with everybody. I take Mickey with me everywhere, to the track, etc and he plays with strangers, young and old all the time. But everytime this child is around he will snap at her. There isn't any growling or showing of teeth as a warning, but if he makes eye contact with her, he will just spring up and snap at her.
Now, on the first day that she was here for a visitation, I was out speaking to her father and Mickey was shut up in my bedroom. Apparently this little girl went into my room with the dog, running and screaming. My daughter actually removed her from the room. The little girl had said at that time that she had been bitten, but there was no evidence of that.
Now, I've been so upset at this odd behaviour from Mickey that I spoke to a lady who boards dogs and has trained them for years, what she thought and she said that the situation that I described above, was enough to make her become a threat in Mickey's eyes and the only way to solve the problem is to seperate the two of them. That Mickey will not be able to be trusted with her.
So what I am wondering is if there is any other suggestions or other things that I can do to help Mickey get over this and except the child. Is there anyway that I can reintroduce this child to Mickey, especially since they didn't get the chance to have a proper introduction in the first place. I hate seperating Mickey from the kids because he loves the other kids and plays with them all the time. I feel horrible putting him in the garage, etc. I feel like he is being punished.
The little girl was just being a hyper kid and he was just being a dog.
Maybe I should have posted this in the aggression section, but I guess I 'm just having a hard time of seeing Mickey as aggressive. I also appologise for this wordy post. I just feel bad about the whole thing.

[TimberWolf]

Hey, this is more of a training question for the dogs and kids forum. I wonder if something happened in that room that maybe startled or upset Mickey. It may have just been because you were around that Mickey found this to be highly irregular and something uncomfortable to feel secure about and has decided that this child is someone he can't trust. I'm sure he'll learn at some point that this child meant him no harm.

Meanwhile, I too would suggest to separate the two. Maybe allow Mickey to be nearby so he can hear and smell what's going on but I'm not a trainer so I will let the professionals give you better advice.

[Marne Benner]

Thank you, for moving the post where you felt it would be best delt with.

Thus far, there has been no improvement in Mickey's behaviour as far as this child is concerned. I have kept them seperated this week, but I have allowed Mickey to sniff at the child's belongings when she is not around. I'm hoping he will get use to her scent and her belongs being here. That he'll get the idea that she belongs.
I haven't gotten the courage up, just yet, to allow the two of them to be in the same room. I'll give it a few more weeks.
Baby steps.
It's unfortunate, the other kids have began to notice Mickey's absence when she is around and their missing him. I'm hoping to get this situation corrected before the other kids resent her for his not being around.
I feel like I'm getting between a rock and a hard place.

[Jody Hayes]

Do you think the little girl got in Mickey's face or maybe hit mickey? Sounds like strange behaviour for such a go lucky dog. Good luck w/ this one.

[Marne Benner]

Do you think the little girl got in Mickey's face or maybe hit mickey? Sounds like strange behaviour for such a go lucky dog. Good luck w/ this one.

Hi Jody!

The professional that I spoke to said that the screaming and running into the room must have been enough to make Mickey feel cornered and threatened somehow. He is now rather fearful of her. According to the child, she didn't touch him, but that he attacked her. (Which he didn't)
There was also an issue that I have just recently learned as well. My son had gone to give Mickey a treat when he was tied up outside put it fell to the ground just out of reach of Mickey's cable. Apparently, this child again, stepped in and took the treat with a "Let me give it to him!" when Mickey felt it was ALREADY his. So she has actually to strikes against her in Mickey's eyes.
This child has no "dog sense" at all. Has no idea how to act around an animal of any kind.
I have been presenting appropriate behaviour to her as well as all the kids, as to everyones behaviour around animals of any kind as part of our learning time in the hopes that she'll know better next time, but it certainly doesn't help me now.

[heathea]

Not to make you out to be a "bad guy" in this because you are not, however you are running a daycare out of your home which means you are going to be held to a higher standard for everything including child safety. I hope you have a good insurance policy because if your dog (who I am sure is a great dog who loves kids) performs a puppy correction on one of the kids there is going to be screaming and angry and possibly litigous parents. The sad fact is not every kid is going to be nice and even if they stab your dog with a fork and that dog bites the child in self defense it would still be your fault. It is an unfair system and I want you to be prepared. It may be in your best interest to lose some money now to have the parents take their child to another daycare as this is a huge potential problem and it could continue to escalate.

Not to be a black cloud raining on your day, but reading posts like these worry me. Be careful.
-Heather

[Marne Benner]

Hi Heather

I know what your saying. Thank you for your concern.
Believe me, the same thoughts have crossed my mind as well.
I'm well covered and the parents are warned that there is a dog in the home prior to their hiring of me, but your right, it may not be worth the hazzel in this case.

[Luciann]

Marne

i am no dog trainer, and i have a suspcious nature where children are concerned it is very possible that the child lied and did do something to Mickey. I won't recount one of my experience with my step kids and a bunny, and according to them they did nothing to the bunny but it was dead, then the truth came out.

so i am a little suspicious. And if the child is not animal savey then she might not think of what she did as threatening but to Mickey it was. You might consider her finding another daycare to attend.

[Marne Benner]

Marne

i am no dog trainer, and i have a suspcious nature where children are concerned it is very possible that the child lied and did do something to Mickey.

Hi Luciann

Yes, I'm absolutely positive that she has lied. She has been caught in several since then as well, but I have several "little spies" and myself, who keep catching her so she's not getting away with much.
I have only had her with me for two weeks and if there isn't any improvement in this situation.....and others, her parents will be looking for another childcare provider. I don't get paid enough to put up with crap like that. LOL

[Kimberly Lyons]

Did you read about what happened to my Charlie when a child did these things? It is very sobering and I would consider removing her imediately. I would hate for anything to happen to your dog because of a lying inconsiderate child. You can read about it, under a thread titled Schizophrenic Dog. It is in the Defensive dog forums. Please keep us updated!

[Sheryl]

I too would consider removing the child from your daycare. I know of a wonderful dog in my town who was put down to avoid potential legal and political backlash after he 'bit' the same child twice (his jacket was torn once, but no skin was broken either time). The child said he didn't 'do' anything, but I have witnessed this child with dogs and he has no animal sense at all, and neither do his parents.

[Grace Erick]

Hi,

I don't know if it's in every state, but in mine, WA, 3 bites and the dog has to be put down.

I would get rid of this child and I'll tell you why. I think your dog may start to associate the child's size with danger and want to then start biting any child of the same size since he may not be able to distinguish between the actual child and the child's size. If it comes to that, it will become a bad habit where he hates any small child. Dump the kid, lol:) Just my thoughts. This kid sounds like trouble anyway!!!!

For any future children that may try to give your dog some hard pats on the head, not from being bad, but from not knowing how to pet a dog which is better done from the neck down need to be trained if they will be in his company, and any harsh treatment should get the child a "time out" where they sit alone quietly for a period of time. That's what someone I know does with her daycare kids if they hit each other. If children are hit at home that you care for, I don't even know if they can be retaught to not be violent against other kids or animals. Kids who are hit at home do tend to take their anger out on animals.

Bye, Grace

[Marne Benner]

Thanks so much for the advice and support folks. I really appreciate it.

As it stands I am working with a trainer to help Mickey and I am still looking after this child. Mickey is getting an education and so is this little girl. I am trying to teach her apporiate behaviours around animals.
Like I said before, we are using baby steps to try to someday reintroduce this child to Mickey.
It isn't a problem at this time to keep the two of them seperated so neither one is in any danger. This child only comes after school for an hour or so. If, further down the road, anything that we have tried hasn't worked and he still shows signs of fear, then the child will be dismissed.
I will certainly choose my Mickey's well being over someone's child because he is considered MY child.

[Jody Hayes]

Great idea Marne! I totally agree w/ you. It's good that you are waiting for "someday"....I wish you the best of luck w/ training.

[Marne Benner]

Great idea Marne! I totally agree w/ you. It's good that you are waiting for "someday"....I wish you the best of luck w/ training.

Thanks Jody!

I 'm not willing to give up on either one of them at this time.



An Update.

The child is adjusting to us alot better. She is listening to instructions and slowing down while she is in the house, etc. Mickey is being kept seperate from her. He has been given opportunity to sniff her belongings when she comes in and the two of them can see each other in the same room without any reactions from either one. So, so far, with babysteps, things look positive.
I'm hoping Mickey will find it in his heart to forgive her for any misgivings in the past and we can all play together again soon.

[Marne Benner]

It's been a month since I updated my situation with my newest addition to daycare and Mickey.
I am pleased to say things are going very well. Better then expected.
Both Mickey and this child are getting along. They can be in the same room with each other with Mickey being off leash, without incident.
Mickey hasn't shown any signs of aggression towards her in the last three weeks and the child is feeling more comfortable around him. She is actually able to feed him a treat and pet him. They have both learned from this experience. She has learned how to behave around strange dogs and Mickey is discovering that she isn't a bad person.
I am still watching very carefully when the two are together and only give them small amounts of time together, by that I mean that Mickey is with us for a while, but when the kids go out to play or into another room Mickey will remain behind. He is getting use to that and doesn't even "beg" to be with the kids anymore. I think he may enjoy the peace and quiet. LOL
Until I trust both of them 100% the situation remains as it is. We are still taking small steps, and it's working.

[Jody Hayes]

congratulations Marne. That is really great. I hope this continues to work for all of you!

[Sheryl]

I am glad that you were willing to put the time and effort into this situation, and not necessarily listen to those of us (myself included) who said to just remove the kid from daycare. Hope things keep improving!

[Marne Benner]

I am glad that you were willing to put the time and effort into this situation, and not necessarily listen to those of us (myself included) who said to just remove the kid from daycare. Hope things keep improving!

Actually, if I didn't listen to you guys, I don't think that we would be doing as well as we are. I have learned so much from everyone here and have been putting it into practise. Taking bits of advice from here and there on this forum and using what works.
I totally understand why people would say remove the child. That is not bad advice. Everyone was giving advice, which was determined by what I had written and described, but you would have to see the situation, know my dog, know the child and just how patient (and stubborn) I can be to fully examine the situation. I myself can only surmize a situation when giving advice.
I appreciate everything everyone had said and took it to heart. I considered removing the child but wanted to try this first. We just have to keep working at it.

Thank you all very much.