Guide dogs and choke collars

[Chris Smith]

I often see guide dogs who are wearing choke collars. Not prongs but the chains that get tighter when you pull on them. A friend of mine has a retired seeing eye dog and he said this dog was trained with a choke collar.

These dogs are supposed to be some of the most dependable, reliable, well-behaved and trustworthy dogs, yet isn't a choke collar negative reinforcement and an aversive? If so, why are these dogs so well behaved and why don't they have aggression or fear or non-bonding issues? (or do they??)

[Renee]

I often see guide dogs who are wearing choke collars. Not prongs but the chains that get tighter when you pull on them. A friend of mine has a retired seeing eye dog and he said this dog was trained with a choke collar.

These dogs are supposed to be some of the most dependable, reliable, well-behaved and trustworthy dogs, yet isn't a choke collar negative reinforcement and an aversive? If so, why are these dogs so well behaved and why don't they have aggression or fear or non-bonding issues? (or do they??)

Hi Chris-

You have posed some excellent questions. Ray Coppinger has dedicated a whole chapter in his book (Dogs - A New Understanding of Canine Orgin, Behavior, and Evolution) to Assistance Dogs.

This is what I have learned....

Decent assistance dogs are very rare. Assistance dogs make up less than 2% of the pet dog population in the United States. Dr. Coppinger states that service dogs are mainly mass-produced in assembly-line fashion by agencies (I wasn't aware of this fact...). Over 50% of the dogs that enter this system fail for a number of reasons. Ray says that this 50% flunk out rate is the number that most agencies will admit to and getting an accurate number from the agencies can be difficult...because it is bad publicity to give out high flunk out rates.

Agencies say dogs usually fail because of health and behavior problems. Some agencies wait until the dog is 1.5 years to start training because that is when genetic diseases can be detected. They don't want to put $$ into training a dog that might be defective. Dr. Coppenger states that the flunk out rate just due to behavioral problems is 40% for some agencies. The list of leading problems includes aggression towards humans and animals, shyness and fear. Ray believes that there is major ignorance in the service dog industry about what dogs need for early development. Many of these dogs are brought up undersocialized and as a result have behaviorial problems. Dr. Coppenger says that the many puppies are born into sterilized kennels where they will spend the 1st ten weeks of their life. The dogs are kept fed and clean and that is about it. Is all sounds pretty sad to me...

The assistance dog industry chooses dogs who are "bomb-proof" in temperment. They have to be dogs that don't run after things like squirrels or cats, they don't make sudden movements and must avoid getting into mischief. Dr. Coppinger says that assistance dogs show little to no evidence of internal motivation to preform assistance tasks and have little comprehension of what they are accomplishing.....I think it is Ray Coppinger's contention that many facets of the service dog industry need to be changed to enhance the dog-human relationship, so the dogs can benefit from this relationship also.

So when you see those well behaved dogs that were trained with aversives, you have to realize how many did not make it through the assistance dog program. And not all assistance dogs are trained this way. Dr. Coppinger states that assistance dog trainers are a mixed bunch of people...some trainers are excellent and some are terrible trainers that haven't so much as read one part of a book on dog training. Also, dogs who do mine detection are generally trained with heavy punishments (I think this might be slowly changing towards +R trainng, but I'm not certain), and many dogs do wash out of the program because they can not handle the punishment. There are certainly some extremely well trained dogs out there who were primarily trained with aversives. But that level of training and reliablility can be achieved with positive means and no fallout. And aversives are certainly not necessary in any type of pet dog and/or obedience/canine sports training.


Here is an article by Bob Bailey that you might find interesting:

http://www.clickersolutions .com/articles/2002/punishment.htm

A little about Bob Bailey...he has trained thousands of animals over the years and has only used +P about a dozen or so times...and that was for serious situations (as in to save lives).

http://www.clickersolutions .com/interviews/bailey.htm

[Melissa Brunoehler]

Renee~

You are such a wealth of information! All of us are so fortunate to have you here as an advisor. Thank you for sharing your advise & knowledge!

[Renee]

thanks Melissa... but you also have to thank Dr. Ray Coppinger for writing such a fantastic book.

If any of you guys have a serious interest in dogs beyond training and really want to learn more about canine origin, behavior and evolution, read Ray Coppinger's book Dogs.
http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=D TB700

I wish I could go back to Wolf Park this year and see Dr. Coppinger's seminar.
http://wolfparkstore.com/store/item/hs7w/Seminars_Photo_and_B ehavior/Three-Day_Seminar_with_Dr_ Ray_Coppinger.html
Unfortunately, I don't have the funds to attend any more seminars this year...maybe next year....Ray has a good relationship with the Wolf Park and usually does a seminar or two every year.

[Chris Smith]

Renee,

Thank you so much for all of the information and for the articles and book citings. It's all really interesting to me and I love to keep learing more and more about dogs and their behavior. This site and the advisors continually provide me with so much information which I am truely thankful for.

Chris