Tuscany Dog Project

[Daniela Jantzen]

Not many people know of a new project in the dog world which might lead to interesting and maybe eye-opening results regarding our dogs' social1 behaviour:

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y70/DANOS1976/3.jpg
copyright: G. Bloch

Since May 2005, a group of scientists and dog lovers are conducting a field study on packs of stray dogs in the national park "Parco Naturale San Rossore" between Viareggio and Pisa, Tuscany, Italy.
These packs are legally protected. Their primary habitats are the beach area as well as the woods of the park. None of the animals is spayed so the main focus will lay on social structure and breeding behaviours within the packs.

The first few months resulted in the following information:
there are three dog packs in the park:
#1: 10 males and 4 females
#2: 1 male and 3 females
#3: 2 females
The large pack displays a stable hierarchy.

The packs are observed between 10-12 hours each day, telemetry technologie allows proper observation even in more distant areas of the park.

The packs have to compete with wild boars at the feeding station, are often attacked by the mother sows, so another focus of the study will be on the interactions amongst boars and dogs.

Project managers are Dr. Ray Coppinger and Guenther Bloch, a German behaviourist specialised on wolf and dog behaviour.
The study will take approx. three years.

Danny

[Kimberly Lyons]

That sounds interesting, is there a website that will be update periodically or will we have to wait until the study is published online or in a science journal?

[Jennifer Carr]

This does look interesting!

The original site is in German, but a Google Translation leads you to this:

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://hundefarm-eifel.de/Italienprojekt/Seite1.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dtuscany %2Bdog%2Bproject%26h l%3Den%26hs%3DZgh%26 lr%3D%26client%3Dfir efox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozill a:en-US:official

Thanks Danny for letting us know about this.

Jenn

Did that link work for you??

This is the original site you can google and translate if not: http://hundefarm-eifel.de/Italienprojekt/Seite1.htm

[Lee Charles Kelley]

Danny: The large pack displays a stable hierarchy.

Kelley: The website actually states that "The large group of dogs operated as closed unit and shows (so far we it so far to judge can) a clear herd structure." There is NO mention of the word pack or hieararchy.

I'd be interested to know if this difference is merely a translation problem, which is possible given the typos and grammatical mistakes in the above quote, or if your information comes from another source. This would be particularly since we now know that wild wolves do NOT form hierarchies. L. David Mech doesn't like to use the word alpha anymore because "it falsely implies a hierarchy." (Canadian Journal of Zoology, 2002) We also know that the Wild Dogs of Africa, who have the most complex social instincts of all canids get by just fine without a "pack leader" or a hierarchical structure of any kind. (McNutt & Boggs)

Wendy Van Kerkhove, a "positive" dog trainer from Minnesota, has written an article for a scientific journal in which she states that feral dog groups do not display dominance hieararchies either.

It will be interesting to follow this study, particularly if Coppinger is involved. He once told me (in an online discussion, hosted by The Washington Post), that he agreed with my idea that the canine pack is more like a self-emergent system than a dominance hierarchy.

[Lee Charles Kelley]

Danny said: "The large pack displays a stable hierarchy."

The website actually states that "The large group of dogs operated as closed unit and shows (so far we it so far to judge can) a clear herd structure." There is NO mention of the word pack or hierarchy.

I'd be interested to know if this difference is merely a translation problem, which is possible given the typos and grammatical mistakes in the above quote, or if your information comes from another source. This would be particularly interesting since we now know that wild wolves do NOT form hierarchies. Dr. L. David Mech doesn't like to use the word alpha anymore because "it falsely implies a hierarchy." (Canadian Journal of Zoology, 2002) We also know that the Wild Dogs of Africa, who have the most complex social instincts of all canids get by just fine without a "pack leader" or a hierarchical structure of any kind. (McNutt & Boggs)

Wendy Van Kerkhove, a "positive" dog trainer from Minnesota, has written an article for a scientific journal in which she states that feral dog groups do not display dominance hieararchies either. (I haven't read the article, just the abstract, so I don't know the source of her information.)

It will be interesting to follow this study, particularly if Coppinger is involved. He once told me (in an online discussion, hosted by The Washington Post), that he agreed with my idea that the canine pack is more like a bottom-up, self-emergent system than a top-down dominance hierarchy, as is still popularly believed. He also stated that wolves who settle near garbage dumps don't form packs. "They have them [loose social arrangements]," he said, "but they're not a pack."

Personally, I think the so-called pack instinct is only ancillary to the canine hunting instinct. Without the need to hunt together wolves and dogs would not form social groups.

[Mario Niepel]

Lee, the proper translation of the sentence

"Die große Hundegruppe operiert als geschlossene Einheit und zeigt (soweit wir es bisher beurteilen können) eine klare Rudelstruktur."

would be

"The large group of dogs operates as coherent unit and exihibits (as war as we can tell for now) a clear pack structure."

'Rudel' in German always refers to 'packs' of animals like dogs while 'herd' would translate to 'Herde'.

[Lee Charles Kelley]

Mario,

I can't get the edit or quote buttons to work! I tried for almost half an hour to revise my first post on this topic and couldn't get the thing to function.

At any rate you said that Rudel refers to pack, and that herd in German is Herde.

I'm sure you're right. (And if you can translate that sentence, maybe you could do the same for a five star review my first novel got on the German language version of Amazon; if so, I'd love to see it!)

However, this is what *I* got from an online German to English dictionary:

Two easy ways to translate text.
Either enter your text or the web page address below and select 'Translate'.
Text: Enter up to 150 words for translation

Rudelstruktur

Web page: Enter the Web address of the page you wish to translate

English to Spanish Spanish to English English to French French to English English to German German to English English to Italian Italian to English English to Portuguese Portuguese to English French to German German to French French to Spanish Spanish to French French to Italian Italian to French French to Portuguese Portuguese to French


Translated text below:

Herd structure

I'm sure that no one, in Germany, Italy, or the U.S. would refer to a group of wild dogs as a "herd" rather than a "pack". Given Coppinger's thoughts on the overuse of the word pack in the first place I thought it might be something significant.

[Mario Niepel]

Given Coppinger's thoughts on the overuse of the word pack in the first place I thought it might be something significant.

Yet, it appears just to be some freak accident by a translation module.

[Lee Charles Kelley]

Mario,

I did some more fooling around with the German-English dictionary and came up with Wolfsatz as German for "wolf pack", and Satzstruktur as German for "pack structure". Meanwhile, the two German nouns, Rudel and Herde, both translate into English as "herd," not "pack."

I'm not saying these animals in Tuscany aren't packs of wild dogs. That's what *I'd* probably call them. I AM saying that Coppinger has expressed concern over the misuse by many biologists of the word pack. I'm also pointing out that Daniela said that the larger group of dogs exhibited a clear hierarchy. I'm wondering where she got that information from, the website or another source? (I didn't see it on the website.)

[Lee Charles Kelley]

Another German-English dictionary agrees with you that Rudel means "pack".

Now, what does this mean?

Nicht nur Rita Mae Browns Katze Miss Murphy kann eine große Hilfe bei der Aufklärung von Verbrechen sein. Auch Hunde können sich einmischen, wie dieser Roman zeigt. Was den Roman von Kelley wohltuend von den Miss-Murphy-Romanen unterscheidet, ist die Tatsache, dass er immer in der Realität bleibt. Die Hunde können nicht in der menschlichen Sprache sprechen, und man muss sich schon sehr gut auskennen, wenn man sie verstehen will. Das tut Jack Field, der Hundetrainer. Er klärt mit Hilfe eines Hundes und seiner profunden Kenntnis der Hundepsyche einen Mord. auch wenn man kein Hundenarr ist, ist der Roman sehr fesselnd. Neben dem kriminellen Plot gibt es natürlich auch eine Lovestory, so dass sich insgesamt einen runde Geschichte ergibt. Ich freue mich schon darauf, den nächsten Band zu lesen.

[Lee Charles Kelley]

Well, this only highlights the drawbacks of an online translator. Following is the "English" version of the German review of my novel, A NOSE FOR MURDER. (For entertainment purposes only.):

Rita Mae Browns cat do not only measure Murphy can a large assistance with the clearing-up of crimes be. Also dogs can interfere, as this
novel shows. Which differentiates the novel from Kelley doing good of
the measure Murphy novels, is the fact that it always remains in the
reality. The dogs cannot speak in the human language, and one must be
already very well been versed, if one wants to understand her. That
does Jack Field, the dog coach. It clarifies with assistance of a dog
and its per finds knowledge of the dog psyche a murder also if one no
dog fool is, is the novel very much binding. Beside the criminal Plot
there is naturally also a Lovestory, so that altogether round history
results. I look forward already to read the next volume.

[Daniela Jantzen]

....
I AM saying that Coppinger has expressed concern over the misuse by many biologists of the word pack. I'm also pointing out that Daniela said that the larger group of dogs exhibited a clear hierarchy. I'm wondering where she got that information from, the website or another source? (I didn't see it on the website.)

Hello Lee,
I got it from the text of the website and from a personal remark by G. Bloch on a seminare. :)
Pack is the proper translation of the German word "Rudel" - a word which is just as misused in the German language as its english counterpart.

G.Bloch, who has written this article, has been doing field research on wolf packs in the Banff National Park in Canada for over more than a decade now and is usually working hand in hand with other experts in the whole world - including David Mech and Ray Coppinger, who he calls a close friend.
Therefore, if people like Bloch use the word "pack/Rudel" in this context, we can be sure it is meant in a correct way. ;)

However, the research on these dogs has just began -what might resemble a "true pack" now could also end up as a lose group of dogs.
Time will tell - and I will keep you posted once I learn more about the dogs in Italy.

Danny

P.s: I like Harry Minor Harristeen and her little zoo. ;)

[Lee Charles Kelley]

Danny,

Thank you for your response and for your original post. I look forward to learning more about this.

One question: who is Harry Minor Harristeen?

[Daniela Jantzen]

One question: who is Harry Minor Harristeen?

Well, if you put a translated version of an absolutely off-topic book into a dog forum I would assume you know the content well enough to know that there is at least some dog content in it.... ;)
"Harry" is the heroine of Rita Mae Browns books - after two cats and a tough corgi. :)

Latest news from the Tuscany Dog Project:
it seems as if the large group is indeed one with a pack structure - with only the top dogs reproducing and not all of them like so many people like to think.
I will keep you posted once I hear more about it.

Danny

[Lee Charles Kelley]

Well, if you put a translated version of an absolutely off-topic book into a dog forum I would assume you know the content well enough to know that there is at least some dog content in it.... ;)
"Harry" is the heroine of Rita Mae Browns books - after two cats and a tough corgi. :)

Latest news from the Tuscany Dog Project:
it seems as if the large group is indeed one with a pack structure - with only the top dogs reproducing and not all of them like so many people like to think.
I will keep you posted once I hear more about it.

Danny

Oh...I've never gotten around to reading any of Rita Mae Brown's books. Sorry. I didn't even know there was a dog involved. I thought it was a cat that helped solve the crimes.

[Grace Erick]

This may not apply since these are privately owned dogs, but on the Indian reservation where I stay sometimes, the dogs all roam during the day and sometimes form a pack, but I see it being for social reasons since they don't hunt and are fed. They all seem to get along w/no particular pack leader. One dog may see another dog and join him in a walk or just hang out together. This community has little vehicle traffic, so the dogs even lay out in the middle of the street on hot days.

I was walking my dog on a leash and this Indian dog came along for the walk and was walking side by side with my dog.

Bye, Grace

[Luciann]

Lee

in the Rita Mae Brown books there are two cats, Mrs. Murphy, Pewter(a very fat cat) then the corgi, but in the barn there are also a possum and an owl that help out from time to time, not really in solving the crimes but in helping protect Harry who keeps getting mixed up in stuff....

they are good books you should try tme, if you like mysteries you should also read the Lillian Jackson Braun books which have two siamese cats Koko and YumYum that help solve the crimes...

[Lee Charles Kelley]

Lee

in the Rita Mae Brown books there are two cats, Mrs. Murphy, Pewter(a very fat cat) then the corgi, but in the barn there are also a possum and an owl that help out from time to time, not really in solving the crimes but in helping protect Harry who keeps getting mixed up in stuff....

they are good books you should try tme, if you like mysteries you should also read the Lillian Jackson Braun books which have two siamese cats Koko and YumYum that help solve the crimes...

It sounds like quite a menagerie. And quite intelligent and adroit to boot. I shall definitely look into it...

[Kimberly Lyons]

Dont forget the two horses and the blacksnake that hibernates there in the winter time! I just finished one of the books very good, I surely did not see the plot twist at the end!

[Luciann]

Yes Kim, they are good books and I did forget the horses and the snakes and don't forget the mice in the walls of the barn as well...lol some just protect harry and other help solve the crimes.

[Daniela Jantzen]

Okeydookey..... back to the subject then, shall we? :)
The latest news:

"Pack" A:
14 dogs, ten males and 4 females. Clearly forming a pack - the dogs act as a unit, are territorial to their area, sleep together, defend the pack. Leader is a approx. 9 year old female called "Eurecia".
Within the last few weeks, a couple of females were in heat which led to fightings about the pack order amongst both males and females - but all fights were solved in proper manner, nothing overly aggressive.
One male called "Ringo" seems to be the one who will be the lucky one with Eurecia - who already started going after another female who is now living still with the pack, but only as an outsider. Same goes for a male called "Fox" who was mobbed out by the other males.

"Pack" B:
1 male and three females. Not really a pack but form a lose social structure (the dogs are not constantly together). When they act as a unit though, the 2year old male called "Guccolo" seems to be the one in charge. A six year old female is currently caring for an approx. 8 week old pup. A second female, "Snoopina", 7 years, acts as a babysitter. There are barely any interactions between pack A and B.

"Pack" C:
Only 2 females, "Tita", 3-4 years old and "Koalina", four years. Both play a lot together and just seem to get along perfectly. "Fox", the male of the large pack who was mobbed, shows up every now and then for social interactions and might be trying to breed with one of them in the future.

I already mentioned the boars before. There is a strong ressource aggression regarding food between both parties. Especially the mother boars attack the dogs, while the dogs usually tend to flee once they are approached (especially the large pack walks off in a perfectly calm manner - it seems as if their lead dog Euricea seems to have taught them a lot about the boars).
But not young Guccolo of pack B, who attacks them happily in a "yippiehyayey"-manner. ;)

Danny