Is a crate for good, bad or both?

[Chris Smith]

I am still not quite getting this whole crate thing...(sorry, but I am new to the idea of a crate for a dog)

I read so many different posts and articles that a crate is a dog's den and it's own special place to feel safe. It is used for "good" things for the dog.

But I also read posts that say when your dog is bad (chewing the wrong things, misbehaving, can't hold his pee) to put him in the crate. This seems to me to be using it for "bad" things.

Maybe both are the right way to use the crate? It seems like the folks on this website really care about dogs and often use crates so I am assuming that it is good for your dog. But a lot of responses often say to give your dog a time out in the crate or put him in the crate when you're gone to control the chewing, etc. So it seems like you "lock them up" when they are not doing what you want.

?????

[Summer Magic]

To my way of thinking the crate is like a dog's den, his own private space. Magic is crated for her protection and well being. When a pup gets too high strung and can't seem to settle down it's a good place for him to have a "time out" not as punishment but just to remove him from stimulation and allow him to calm down on his own before he harms himself or others. It also helps the pet owner to put the pup in a safe place when they have to deal with a puppy disaster (shredded newspaper, broken vase, whatever) When one has to leave the house it insures that the pup isn't getting into things he shouldn't and also gives the humans reassurance that they won't come home and find the couch in shreds.

[Jill Ramsey]

Chris,
If introduced to the crate correctly, most dog love their crates. I know Finnegan loves his. He will go in it to nap, if he hears something he doesn't like, when I bring out the vacuum. :? All we have to do is pull a kong out of the freezer, and he runs to his crate waiting, cause that 's the only time he gets one. He spends most of the day in there, with one potty break, and will go back in while I'm preparing dinner. I don't usually put him in there as a punishment. I will sometimes use " go to your spot" and make him down/stay for a couple of minutes instead.

[Andre Mendizabal]

Like Jill, I think if used properly its a great tool on training your dog... but it all depends on YOU and how you are going to use the crate... I am not a fan of the idea of punishing your dog by locking him on the crate, I would rather use other kind of "punishment"... Anyway, a crate can be great when you have no space to keep your dog when you're out, when he's a puppy and you need to keep him confined to an area, for travelling, for sleeping, even as a toy box somebody said in other post... I mean, its a great thing if introduced properly, if not it can feel like hell...

[Laura Redhawk]

As beautifully expressed in these posts, The Crate is a SUPPORT tool, much like the Tether, Baby Gates, the Collar and Lead.

The Crate is not intended, in +R Training to be a Punishment. It is only meant to support the dog in being set up to do the Desired, Correct Behaviors. Because dogs ARE denning Animals, it can easily be used as a private, Comfort Space for the dog to enjoy...it's all in the Presentation of the space.

Including the Crate in Playtimes, leaving the door open and tossing favorite toys and treats in it, hiding toys and treats in the crate, and/or other containers for your dog to find, during a playtime...help make it a "good thing" for your dog to enjoy. Never using force to place the dog in the Crate, and never being ANGRY when you place them reinforces that it is a Happy Space to relax in.

For Housetraining, it supports the puppy in NOT having free access to your home, during times you cannot be available to actively WATCH them...at work, in the shower, sleeping, conducting business that you need to focus on, or dealing with a small child who required the same level of your focus as they untrained puppy or dog!
Wags
Laura

[Chris Smith]

Thank you for these wonderful and well written responses to my crate question. The idea of a "support" tool makes a lot of sense to me since I do use baby gates and don't feel like I am being mean or punishing him when I use them. It is more like giving him some boundaries for his safety and mine (or my house!). I guess the crate could be used the same way.

And as you have all stated, if he learns to really like it, than I wouldn't feel bad "putting him in the crate" when I need to keep him away for his safety (using the weed wacker, vacuum).

Thanks!!

[Hee Yung Lee]

I agree with everyone else. My dog loved his crate. At first he would whine, but after a week, he stopped. It has been an excellent tool in housetraining and preventing him from hurting himself or getting into things while I was gone.

[Tracee Norris]

On this whole topic,
I have introduced the crate as good as I can I think. We actually use two crates, one in the bedroom for bedtime (the other one's too big to fit in our room and plus I wanted her to be out where the action was during the day) and the living room crate we put her in when we leave the house. I don't have any problems getting her in the crates, she literally jumps in there when I grab the kongs or treats, and I can put her in the bed crate with the treats as well. But she just hasn't taken to it like I hear people talk about. At night she will whine for a minute or two before settling down, and even though we leave the door open and toys in there she never goes and lays down in her big crate. My other dog did for a while to get away from her, but hasn't for a long time.

Any ideas how to get her more excited about her bed? I never use it for punishment, I learned from that mistake with the first dog. But why hasn't she adopted the "this is my den" theory?

[Chris Smith]

Maybe a crate is not a like a cozy den to some dogs even if introduced right??? I have really been trying to make the crate fun for Nalu by incorporating it into his playtime, putting his toys and treats in there, etc. and he just won't go for it. He will stop playing with a toy rather than go into the crate to get it.

Recently I put one of his special favorite treat bones in the back of the crate assuming he would at least go in to get it and hopefully eat it in there. Instead, he grabbed the pad/matt part with his teeth and slowly and carefully dragged it completely out of the crate until the treat bone dropped outsid the crate. I put the treat all the way in the back of the crate again and he did the exact same thing.

I'm ready to give up on trying to get him to like a crate...and I'm thinking that maybe some dogs don't get a safe feeling from it???

[MutzzysMom]

Maybe a crate is not a like a cozy den to some dogs even if introduced right??? I have really been trying to make the crate fun for Nalu by incorporating it into his playtime, putting his toys and treats in there, etc. and he just won't go for it. He will stop playing with a toy rather than go into the crate to get it.

Recently I put one of his special favorite treat bones in the back of the crate assuming he would at least go in to get it and hopefully eat it in there. Instead, he grabbed the pad/matt part with his teeth and slowly and carefully dragged it completely out of the crate until the treat bone dropped outsid the crate. I put the treat all the way in the back of the crate again and he did the exact same thing.

I'm ready to give up on trying to get him to like a crate...and I'm thinking that maybe some dogs don't get a safe feeling from it???

Mutzzy likes her crate. She rarely whines when in it and readily goes to it when prompted. I just say "go inside" and she usually Goes. She doesnt really go in it to nap Shed rather nap where the action is and rarely goes in there on her own except for at night when she is tired. She does find it a safe place and goes in it on her own when we have company. I found with birthdays and holidays when we have people over she will greet everyone as they come with her hyper little self but once things get loud i see her sneak away to her crate. ITs great really.

[Maria Juliano]

[QUOTE=Chris Smith]I am still not quite getting this whole crate thing...(sorry, but I am new to the idea of a crate for a dog)

I read so many different posts and articles that a crate is a dog's den and it's own special place to feel safe. It is used for "good" things for the dog.

But I also read posts that say when your dog is bad (chewing the wrong things, misbehaving, can't hold his pee) to put him in the crate. This seems to me to be using it for "bad" things.

Maybe both are the right way to use the crate? It seems like the folks on this website really care about dogs and often use crates so I am assuming that it is good for your dog. But a lot of responses often say to give your dog a time out in the crate or put him in the crate when you're gone to control the chewing, etc. So it seems like you "lock them up" when they are not doing what you want.




I wanted to comment on this subject: the crate.


I bought a crate large enough for my two shih tzus prior to their arrival. I did what was adviced in the old DD, tried to follow the "instructions" on how to use it and make it into their own "den". I place comfortable bedding, toys, Nylabones, treats, MY HEAD and part of my body ( you get the idea...) The only time my pups tolerate the crate is at night.

Around 9 pm I show them their chicken strip treats and in they go without a sound. They are totally comfortable and fast asleep within minutes. I don't understand why they would accept it at night but not during the day. They wake up ( like clock work ) at 6: 25 am each morning. I go down and take them out to do their business, unless it's pouring outside, in which case, they use the pee pads. Yes, I'm training them to use both ( so far it's been a success! ) I leave them in my gated kitchen when I cannot watch them constantly. This method works for me and my pups.

[Grace Erick]

By punishing a dog by putting him in his crate would not be good. It's his home, at least for a while and a safe haven. I know some dogs that after they have been housebroken, the owners leave the crate open all the time since the dogs have taken to sleeping in it w/the door open all night now that they are trained.

I have a parrot and I never put him in his cage for unwanted behavior, I just try to correct it then and there, which usually means putting him back on his perch and taking him off the couch where he flies down to sometimes. If he has pooped before he flew over, he can stay, or I will bring him back to the couch after he poops. He really knows to poop before he flies over.

[MutzzysMom]

By punishing a dog by putting him in his crate would not be good. It's his home, at least for a while and a safe haven. I know some dogs that after they have been housebroken, the owners leave the crate open all the time since the dogs have taken to sleeping in it w/the door open all night now that they are trained.

I have a parrot and I never put him in his cage for unwanted behavior, I just try to correct it then and there, which usually means putting him back on his perch and taking him off the couch where he flies down to sometimes. If he has pooped before he flew over, he can stay, or I will bring him back to the couch after he poops. He really knows to poop before he flies over.

Grace
speaking of parrots. This doesnt belong at DOGGIE bag BUT how did you potty train your parrot. WE have a beautiful sun conure that adores me and i love playing with him but he POOOPS CONSTANTLY i mean never ending pooper so its so hard to take him out and just let him free. His wings are clipped which i think makes it even harder SOrry for the off topic question but i really am interested

[Grace Erick]

Francesca, I saw your dog's pictures and your dog is so beautiful. What a face!!!!!

I will put us back on topic, because I trained Capri to pee on command the same way. When Capri would use her puppy pad, I would say, "go on the paper" ALL THE TIME. She learned what it meant, so I can put a puppy pad down in an airport bathroom when I travel and reach my destination, and tell her to "go on the paper" and she goes. Now part of her going is that she is ready to go. If she isn't, she won't go and it's the same for the bird.

My parrot even understands more than to just poop on command, he knows to poop before he flys over to the couch to sit with me. Everytime he poops, as he is pooping, I say "poop", EVERY TIME. If he is close to going and I say "poop" he will go. Then after he poops, I bring him over to the couch, so he connected the two scenaries all by himself. I didn't even mean to teach him to poop before he flew over. His wings are clipped but he can glide down onto the arm of the couch, then he walks across the couch to the next couch and hops over, then comes over to me on the computer and wants to walk on the keyboard and try to pluck the keys up.

He is a riot when I used to play scrabble on the floor. He would come off his perch and walk over to the board and start taking the tiles off the board and throwing them in the air one by one.

The thing with him is that he goes about every 20 min., so I will bring him to his perch every 20 min. and as soon as I put him on his perch, I don't even have to say poop and he does it, then he knows he can come back to the couch with me. He's very smart.

It may be a little different with sunny conures. If they poop more often, you just have to bring him back to his cage or perch when you think he will go. After he goes, bring him back out immediately and maybe he will catch on too like my bird did. Animals catch onto patterns very well sometimes if it benefits them, and it benefits my parrot to poop before he flies over to me.

Merlin, my African Gray, has his own room w/a cage that is open all the time and a swing that hangs from the ceiling. When I go on vacation, I just close his door and have friends come in to feed him. He is never locked up. Then I have a perch in the livingroom, so he is out with me most of the day as long as I can keep an eye on him. I wouldn't, let's say, take a shower and leave him on his perch. He may fly down or fall off and start chewing on something and then the dog loves to jump at him until he gets pissed off and starts running after her, then she knows she is in trouble and jumps back.

In the 11 years I've had Merlin, he has only ruined a few things, like putting a hole in a shirt if you leave it on the couch and he jumps down and you're not watching. I call him the "can opener":) He has taken two zippers off of jackets too that were left on the couch, but that's not too bad after 11 years:)

Sunny Conures are very pretty birds. My husband's friend had a cockatiel that just died and I think that is what they bought. They made a big error by buying a second bird when they had the cockatiel by getting some black cheeked small parrot or bird and they didn't read up on him first and all the bird ever does is nip them. It's that breeds charateristic. They originally wanted a sunny conure. The black cheeked one was only $100 and I guess she thought she would have just as good of a bird as a sunny conure which is so much more expensive, but she was so wrong and the sunny conures are so much prettier than the bird she got too.

[Krysta Smith]

Lola's the same. When I first introduced her to her crate she slept in there for all of her naps and during the night. I would put her in when I couldn't watch her. Now she doesn't go in much but I think it's my fault. I let her sleep on my bed and I've slowly let her take her naps there as well. She will go in if I say "crate" and she'll lie down, and if her kong's in there she's happy.. But unless I tell her to go inside she usually won't. She may walk in and lay down for a few minute but she'll come right back out and go to sleep on the bed. I'm not too worried about it, she's usually fine if I'm gone for an hour or so, or she stays with someone else that is home.

[MutzzysMom]

Francesca, I saw your dog's pictures and your dog is so beautiful. What a face!!!!!

I will put us back on topic, because I trained Capri to pee on command the same way. When Capri would use her puppy pad, I would say, "go on the paper" ALL THE TIME. She learned what it meant, so I can put a puppy pad down in an airport bathroom when I travel and reach my destination, and tell her to "go on the paper" and she goes. Now part of her going is that she is ready to go. If she isn't, she won't go and it's the same for the bird.

My parrot even understands more than to just poop on command, he knows to poop before he flys over to the couch to sit with me. Everytime he poops, as he is pooping, I say "poop", EVERY TIME. If he is close to going and I say "poop" he will go. Then after he poops, I bring him over to the couch, so he connected the two scenaries all by himself. I didn't even mean to teach him to poop before he flew over. His wings are clipped but he can glide down onto the arm of the couch, then he walks across the couch to the next couch and hops over, then comes over to me on the computer and wants to walk on the keyboard and try to pluck the keys up.

He is a riot when I used to play scrabble on the floor. He would come off his perch and walk over to the board and start taking the tiles off the board and throwing them in the air one by one.

The thing with him is that he goes about every 20 min., so I will bring him to his perch every 20 min. and as soon as I put him on his perch, I don't even have to say poop and he does it, then he knows he can come back to the couch with me. He's very smart.

It may be a little different with sunny conures. If they poop more often, you just have to bring him back to his cage or perch when you think he will go. After he goes, bring him back out immediately and maybe he will catch on too like my bird did. Animals catch onto patterns very well sometimes if it benefits them, and it benefits my parrot to poop before he flies over to me.

Merlin, my African Gray, has his own room w/a cage that is open all the time and a swing that hangs from the ceiling. When I go on vacation, I just close his door and have friends come in to feed him. He is never locked up. Then I have a perch in the livingroom, so he is out with me most of the day as long as I can keep an eye on him. I wouldn't, let's say, take a shower and leave him on his perch. He may fly down or fall off and start chewing on something and then the dog loves to jump at him until he gets pissed off and starts running after her, then she knows she is in trouble and jumps back.

In the 11 years I've had Merlin, he has only ruined a few things, like putting a hole in a shirt if you leave it on the couch and he jumps down and you're not watching. I call him the "can opener":) He has taken two zippers off of jackets too that were left on the couch, but that's not too bad after 11 years:)

Sunny Conures are very pretty birds. My husband's friend had a cockatiel that just died and I think that is what they bought. They made a big error by buying a second bird when they had the cockatiel by getting some black cheeked small parrot or bird and they didn't read up on him first and all the bird ever does is nip them. It's that breeds charateristic. They originally wanted a sunny conure. The black cheeked one was only $100 and I guess she thought she would have just as good of a bird as a sunny conure which is so much more expensive, but she was so wrong and the sunny conures are so much prettier than the bird she got too.

I think my brother payed about 400 but he is not really invested in training the bird. I dont know why he got it. He does a lot of that acting without thinking :mad: Th sonure lives in the appartment below me and i go and visit him as much as i can. My brother doesnt understand why he bites him but comes to me as soon as i put my hand in.....go figure...maybe if he actually payed attention to him he would like him! Im trying to "potty train" and i did get him to go on a paper towel when i put him down and he does it about 90% but then again thats great for me not spending the whole day with him. He really is beautiful...a bit noisy but a work in progress. I think i may have to adopt him....My brother was debating whether he should send him to puerto rico where his father in law has a beautiful aviary. I dont know how mutzzy would handle the competition if i were to take him in:rolleyes:

[Grace Erick]

Francesca, if the bird is very socialized with human's he may not prefer an aviary just as you are thinking. If you are lucky, your brother may find he can't import the bird there:)

My husband did not put in near enough time with my African Gray so he only really likes me. He will try to nip him sometimes when he goes to pick him up and I just throw it at him how he should have put more effort in when we got him. Now 11 years later, it's too late, not that he is trying now either. The same goes for Capri. She plays with my husband, but I'm #1 and he is......#2.

If you adopt the bird, you can always get one of those small playpens to put him on when you are home. My friend that had the cockatiel, her husband loved the bird and would walk around all day with him on his shoulder. He would put small kitchen towels on his shoulder to catch poop.

[Valerie K]

I am also owned by two shih tzu siblings, and although they are crate-trained, and I did follow the directions on making the crate a place they would love, they have never really loved it and probably never will. They have a large crate for both of them and do prefer to be crated together. They will go in when I ask them to, and will even wander in occasionally as we leave the door open the rest of the time. But the wandering in is usually for a good digging session as they like to dig at the crate pad (this seems to be a shih tzu trait), but when they are looking for a place to hang out, the couch or a lap are their preferred locations. OK, they are spoiled rotten and are allowed on the furniture. They also now sleep on the bed with us (once they were house-trained) as originally it allowed me to get an extra hour's sleep as they will stay in the bed happily but were up at the crack of dawn when they slept in their crate by our bed. Now of course, we like having them in bed with us, but wish we had bought a king size instead of a queen. They sleep between us and my husband and I are both falling off our respective sides of the bed...

I do put them in the crate for very short time outs (2 min's) when their play gets out of hand, and they settle down right away, but I don't see this as punishment, it is for their own good and they are allowed out as soon as they are calm. If I am at home and need to do something where they will be in the way, I find they are better if I gate them in a small room nearby to where I am working, rather than use their crate. They will lay down then and relax, whereas if I crate them, they will bark and whine. I know they are quiet if we crate them and actually leave the house (we have hung around outside and listened) but if they know we are in the house, they don't like being crated.

BTW, I also use the pads in the garage when it is raining hard or the weather is particularly nasty, and we have had great success with it. I just make sure to open the door so they see the rain and they are quite content to use the pads instead. They still associate it with going "outside". There is nothing worse than a shih tzu that is soaking wet and covered with mud.

[Maria Juliano]

I am also owned by two shih tzu siblings, and although they are crate-trained, and I did follow the directions on making the crate a place they would love, they have never really loved it and probably never will. They have a large crate for both of them and do prefer to be crated together. They will go in when I ask them to, and will even wander in occasionally as we leave the door open the rest of the time. But the wandering in is usually for a good digging session as they like to dig at the crate pad (this seems to be a shih tzu trait), but when they are looking for a place to hang out, the couch or a lap are their preferred locations. OK, they are spoiled rotten and are allowed on the furniture. They also now sleep on the bed with us (once they were house-trained) as originally it allowed me to get an extra hour's sleep as they will stay in the bed happily but were up at the crack of dawn when they slept in their crate by our bed. Now of course, we like having them in bed with us, but wish we had bought a king size instead of a queen. They sleep between us and my husband and I are both falling off our respective sides of the bed...

I do put them in the crate for very short time outs (2 min's) when their play gets out of hand, and they settle down right away, but I don't see this as punishment, it is for their own good and they are allowed out as soon as they are calm. If I am at home and need to do something where they will be in the way, I find they are better if I gate them in a small room nearby to where I am working, rather than use their crate. They will lay down then and relax, whereas if I crate them, they will bark and whine. I know they are quiet if we crate them and actually leave the house (we have hung around outside and listened) but if they know we are in the house, they don't like being crated.

BTW, I also use the pads in the garage when it is raining hard or the weather is particularly nasty, and we have had great success with it. I just make sure to open the door so they see the rain and they are quite content to use the pads instead. They still associate it with going "outside". There is nothing worse than a shih tzu that is soaking wet and covered with mud.


Valerie--So glad to hear I'm not the only Shih Tzus parent who has a similar situation with the use of a crate... Mine just tolerated at night, but not during the day.

When it pours outside, my puppies won't even bother to bark to be let out of the gated kitchen, they just do their business on the pads.

You are right! " Nothing is worse than a Shih Tzu soaking wet and covered with mud!! "

How old are your Shih Tzus? They are adorable! Mine are 6 months, a brother and sister.

[MutzzysMom]

Valerie--So glad to hear I'm not the only Shih Tzus parent who has a similar situation with the use of a crate... Mine just tolerated at night, but not during the day.

When it pours outside, my puppies won't even bother to bark to be let out of the gated kitchen, they just do their business on the pads.

You are right! " Nothing is worse than a Shih Tzu soaking wet and covered with mud!! "

How old are your Shih Tzus? They are adorable! Mine are 6 months, a brother and sister.





VALERIE WELCOME!

Im sure you have awoken the shih tzu camp here. My mutzzy digs in her crate as well and in her bed....and in my bed....and at the carpet lol i guess it is a shih tzu trate. Like i said mutzzy will rarely go in voluntarily except when she fears something. BUt she ALWAYs goes in when told shes just so adorable when she listens :) Your shih tzus are lovely! I think i must be the only one that has only one!

[Valerie K]

Both are girls and they were 15 months old last week. Esmee, white and black is the larger, weighing in at a whopping 11.5 lbs and Zoey, small black girl, is a tiny little thing, topping out at 7.2 lbs. Having two is wonderful, but raising two littermates was a bit of a nightmare. I posted a lot on the old doggie door site as a way to keep my sanity. Because of various health issues (Esmee had a tummy operation at 6 mos. and Zoey has juvenile renal dysplasia which we have to monitor but she is okay right now) they weren't actually house-trained where we could trust them until about a month or two ago. Every time we made progress, someone would get a UTI or Esmee would have some IBD issues and everything they had learned would go out the window. But we seem to be on track right now and they are slowly getting freedom of the rest of the house. But we adore them, even when they are being probably children...

[Maria Juliano]

Both are girls and they were 15 months old last week. Esmee, white and black is the larger, weighing in at a whopping 11.5 lbs and Zoey, small black girl, is a tiny little thing, topping out at 7.2 lbs. Having two is wonderful, but raising two littermates was a bit of a nightmare. I posted a lot on the old doggie door site as a way to keep my sanity. Because of various health issues (Esmee had a tummy operation at 6 mos. and Zoey has juvenile renal dysplasia which we have to monitor but she is okay right now) they weren't actually house-trained where we could trust them until about a month or two ago. Every time we made progress, someone would get a UTI or Esmee would have some IBD issues and everything they had learned would go out the window. But we seem to be on track right now and they are slowly getting freedom of the rest of the house. But we adore them, even when they are being probably children...

Hi Valerie,

Thanks so much for sharing your story... I just love your babies names!

As a new parent to 2 shih tzus ( never had dogs before ), I can appreciate and relate to the hecticness of raising two littermates, but I can't imagine how painful it must of been for you to see your babies go thru all that they did. Glad to hear they are doing better... and consistent with the housetraining.

I guess there is hope for mine? ;) I still don't trust them to roam the house, unless I'm watching them constantly. Giotto thinks he is TOP DOG since he learned ( two weeks ) to go down the steps. Lina is a bit afraid... hope she can muster the courage to follow her brother down the steps.

I find myself totally submerged in them...sometimes I wonder if I'm the Alpha or the Omega? :confused:

Looking forward to hearing more about Esmee and Zoey.

BIG (( HUG )) from,

Maria, Giotto and Lina