Help please: herding/hierarchy issues

[Casey Laurie]

Our foster has been herding our son something awful. It's not like he's running all over the place, it's more like he's competition for attention. I think she sees he and she as having equal status in our pack and I'd really like to "nip" this in the bud IMMEDIATELY. The poor kid has a very deep bruise on his ankle because she gets him in the same spot each time, SEVERAL times per day and the behavior is escalating.

My plan so far, since I really cannot find anything as of yet to deal with this particular issue, is to make it clear to her that my son is where her bread is butgtered, so to speak.

All the dogs were set up with new crates last night and are learning to "go in your house" for quiet time. I haven't tried closing the doors yet though. I need ideas about what sorst of fabulous things I can give them that they only get when they are in thier crates with the doors shut. Right now I have their old beds stuffed into the crates so they get the idea that these are their new sleeping quarters.

I have given my son "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Positive Dog Training" as his summer reading, and he will now have (supervised of course) the responsibility of almost all of her care. We are already on NILIF.
He will keep her on lead for the rest of this week in hopes that she will "get it" sooner than later. She's a quick study, so it shouldn't take too long, but keeping my son relaxed and consistant is going to be the biggests challenge.

Am I on the right track, or is this dangerous? If I cannot supervise them, she will be crated. This is all I can think of to do about this. She has issues with strangers, so I'll still be walking her off the property, but I figure he should be able to handle her in the yard. What can I do to make this more rewarding for my son? I'm hoping of course, that the relationship he builds with her will be reward enough, but as we don't expect our dogs to work for free, I don't expect my children to either, and this is a HUGE responsibility for him.

My son is 10 years old, and has Asbergers Syndrome, and ADHD. He has his own focusing and social issues to deal with in addition to this. I'm hoping this will be theraputic for both of them.

[Melissa Brunoehler]

Hi Casey~
I’m going to let Renee P help you out with the issue of your dog herding your son. But I thought I would suggest a fun way to reward your son for all his hard work.

Think of rewards your son will enjoy.
Suggestions- trip to Dairy Queen
Extra ½ hour of TV watching or video games or computer
No chore night (in other words you do his chore for him)
Trip to favorite store so that he can pick something out- you set maximum price before you get there


Come up with what ever you think your son will enjoy & that you will be willing to do. You can even let your son help you come up with the rewards.
Write each individual reward on small individual pieces of paper. Put each slip of paper in a bowl.
When your son has done a really good job with the dog and you think he deserves an extra special reward let him go to the reward bowl & pick out one piece of paper.
Keep it exciting- While you might praise his efforts every time, let him pick a reward out of the bowl at random times.
Remember you have to live up to your end of the bargain so be prepared to take him somewhere if that’s the reward that is selected.

Hope this helps!

[Casey Laurie]

Thanks Melissa :)
I need to write out a plan for everyone so I can have a clear idea of what we will do and what our goals are. I started the crate training today and my two dogs are taking very well to it. Lilly seems to be barrier aggressive though, as I mentioned in the other thread.

Does this sound like it might work?

I'll spray some DAP in the crate before trying to get her in.
Once I can get her to go into the crate again I will leave the door open and have Jake drop bits of chicken at the front of the crate, then I'll close it for a minute (timed) and he can click and feed her through the grate. then we let her out and he can throw the ball for her a few times, ask for a sit, treat again and end.
My problem is that I have a hard time figuring out when to raise the criteria and start varying reinforcers.

I'd also like him to do at least 5 minutes a day of just playing with her, and another 5 minutes of working. Is that too much too soon, or not enough?

I got it! Hide and seek! He can hide, and when she finds him he can treat her or play a game of fetch or "drop it/take it". She'll never know what she's going to get at the end. Should she always get something, or should we vary it even more where sometimes it's just a "good dog" and a scritch on the head?

Am I on the right track?

[Renee Premaza]

Hi Casey!

I train puppies for the Northstar Foundation (www.NorthStarDogs.c om). This organization breeds Golden Retrievers specifically for autistic children, so I know how difficult it is for a child with Asberger's to sometimes focus on a job at hand, or have a complete panic attack if given too much responsibility at one time.

I have noticed that the children do much better when given small responsibilities at a time. One child I just completed training with who has Asberger's could not handle it when I first asked him to hand-feed his new puppy his entire dinner. The child cried every night and said he didn't want to do this with the entire meal. So we adjusted his responsibility down to 10 kibbles per evening. That was more comfortable for him then. This puppy was very nippy and growly and pushy from the time he was 8 weeks old until about 5 1/2 months. The child became very annoyed and uncomfortable with him for a lot of that early-puppy stage. Now both "kids" are maturing and getting along very well. His puppy, "Mickey" is now 7 months old. The child now plays with him a lot, trains him sometimes for very very short periods of time, and he also doesn't bother with him when he feels stressed or anxious.

I'd like to offer some suggestions for both dog and child if you don't mind :-):

First the dog:

Herding dogs herd various things, and children often represent part of their "flock." Please do not think of this has a hierarchy or dominance issue because it really isn't. A dog that is bred to do a specific job has the instincts already hard-wired to do those jobs. Our challenge is to re-direct those instincts so the dog doesn't get into trouble in an environment where there are no sheep! If you have a herding dog living in your home, you can teach this dog to chase appropriate items. One idea is to get a long stick or something that might resemble a fishing rod, and tie a squeaky toy to the end of a long rope that is attached to this stick or fishing rod. Your son might have a good time by dragging this rope behind him around in the backyard so the dog will focus on herding the squeaky toy and NOT your child.

You stated that "The poor kid has a very deep bruise on his ankle because she gets him in the same spot each time, SEVERAL times per day and the behavior is escalating.<< Describe to me everything your son is doing that makes Lilly want to herd him so many times/day. Yes, it is escalating because the dog is able to practice this behavior, so in essence, it is becoming a habit. Many herding dogs herd from behind, but my own Border Collie used to do figure 8's around the front of my legs as I would be walking forward. I would just stop moving when he did this. Sometimes that helped, but other times it didn't. So I might pick up a ball and toss it away to re-focus him on doing something else. Remember though -- if you re-focus the dog and Lilly does do something else, reward her by praising her and letting her know she just did something good in your eyes!!!!

One thing you might also want to teach Lilly is to do extended down/stays (directions are in our obedience articles). This would come in mighty handy whenever your son wanted to walk around a room or enter a room where Lilly was without having her run behind him nipping at his heels. Herding dogs are taught to do a lot of downs when they're working sheep.

Teach Lilly a good leave it command (directions are in our obedience articles here on Doggie Bag). When you see Lilly even get into any position that remotely looks like she's going to start following your son's heels, tell her "leave it," and she will turn away from him. Leave it is a preventative cue. A trainer I knew used to tell her own clients that when you teach leave it to a dog, you become "the thought police!" I love that term because leave it prevents many a dog from continuing to think about something that you don't want him to focus on.

Whenever your son is doing something that might trigger Lilly into herding mode, make sure Lilly's leash is on, so either he or you can take him somewhere else to avoid the nipping. I might also recommend that if you keep Lilly for any length of time that you (1) take her to agility classes, or (2) if you have any sheep farms around, take her for sheep herding lessons, which can be a lot of fun for both the dog and you!

You said, "I need ideas about what sorst of fabulous things I can give them that they only get when they are in thier crates with the doors shut. <<

When you're training them to go in their crates, you want to reward them with things like cooked garlic chicken, low-fat string cheese, or any high-value food reward. When I teach crate training, I reward the dog for going in its crate with a lure at first. As I'm luring the dog, I tell them, "go in your crate." I use a sweeping hand motion so that winds up being a hand-signal. Once the dog goes in without the lure, I continue to toss a treat into the crate. But... I then toss a treat out of the crate and say, "go get that." I get the dog to go in and out, in and out and it becomes a very fun game. When I feel the dog is ready for it, I then ask him to go in the crate, and then I shut the crate door, offer the dog a treat, and then quickly open the door. When the dog stays in the crate, I will give the dog a jackpot of 2 treats given separately for that. Little by little, I keep the crate door shut for longer and longer periods, but I'm only working on this training for about 5-10 minutes at a time. End it when the dog is wanting more!! Once the dog is trained to stay in the crate for awhile, you can put him in there with a filled Kong toy. Fill it with peanut butter or cream cheese. Kong has its own stuffers that come in cans that you can squeeze out like whip cream into the kong toy. I tell my clients to keep a couple of Kongs filled in the freeze at a time so they're always prepared when they have to occupy their dogs with something good. If you go to the Kong website, I believe they have all sorts of recipe ideas. Check out their website: http://www.kongcompany.com/worlds_best.asp

I'm going to continue this post with a PART 2 because the website won't allow more than so many words per post. I'm going to do that now.

Our foster has been herding our son something awful. It's not like he's running all over the place, it's more like he's competition for attention. I think she sees he and she as having equal status in our pack and I'd really like to "nip" this in the bud IMMEDIATELY. The poor kid has a very deep bruise on his ankle because she gets him in the same spot each time, SEVERAL times per day and the behavior is escalating.

My plan so far, since I really cannot find anything as of yet to deal with this particular issue, is to make it clear to her that my son is where her bread is butgtered, so to speak.

All the dogs were set up with new crates last night and are learning to "go in your house" for quiet time. I haven't tried closing the doors yet though. I need ideas about what sorst of fabulous things I can give them that they only get when they are in thier crates with the doors shut. Right now I have their old beds stuffed into the crates so they get the idea that these are their new sleeping quarters.

I have given my son "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Positive Dog Training" as his summer reading, and he will now have (supervised of course) the responsibility of almost all of her care. We are already on NILIF.
He will keep her on lead for the rest of this week in hopes that she will "get it" sooner than later. She's a quick study, so it shouldn't take too long, but keeping my son relaxed and consistant is going to be the biggests challenge.

Am I on the right track, or is this dangerous? If I cannot supervise them, she will be crated. This is all I can think of to do about this. She has issues with strangers, so I'll still be walking her off the property, but I figure he should be able to handle her in the yard. What can I do to make this more rewarding for my son? I'm hoping of course, that the relationship he builds with her will be reward enough, but as we don't expect our dogs to work for free, I don't expect my children to either, and this is a HUGE responsibility for him.

My son is 10 years old, and has Asbergers Syndrome, and ADHD. He has his own focusing and social issues to deal with in addition to this. I'm hoping this will be theraputic for both of them.

[Renee Premaza]

Hi again, Casey!

Okay, let's get to my suggestions about your son and how he can better interact with this foster herding dog:

You said, "I have given my son "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Positive Dog Training" as his summer reading, and he will now have (supervised of course) the responsibility of almost all of her care. <<

This is a very good training book! However, giving your son the responsibility of almost all of her care might be a huge undertaking for your son. Of course you know him well, but I think for any 10 year old child, this would be much too much to ask at that age. I would be afraid that he would become overwhelmed with his new responsibilities that he would completely turn off (or as we say about dogs -- shut down). Set him up for success so he'll want to learn and work.

How about asking your son to read a few pages of this book each night? After he reads, you can ask him what he's learned. If he seems to understand what he's read, make a chart up for him that describes what he's read and understood, and put a colorful star by that day (my own parents did this for me when I was a child having difficulty reading. I looked forward to seeing all those stars accumulate, and I learned to read very well).

If you look at page 10 of this book, you'll see the headline that says, "Break Down Each Behavior into Tiny Pieces (Approximations)." We not only do this with dogs, but it would be an excellent idea to do this with you son. So... Here are some suggestions of small training chores to give your son.

1. Ask him to hand-feed her kibble either at breakfast or dinner (or both), as many kibbles as he feels comfortable giving her. This might only be 5 kibbles. You want him to enjoy this work, so don't ask him for more than he's able to give. If he only gives 5 kibbles, reward him with something he loves (as Melissa suggested to you).

2. Ask him to charge the clicker for Lilly. I'm assuming you know what that is since you've stated you do clicker training. Even if you've been clicking with Lilly, allow your son to charge it anyway so the dog learns that she has another teacher.

3. If you've trained Lilly to sit, that's great. Ask your son to teach Lilly to sit for HIM. You can teach him how to lure her into that sit, or have him just hold her leash, have a treat ready in his hand behind his back, and tell him to tell her, "SIT." If she sits for him, YOU can do the clicking, and HE can do the treating at first. Allow him the time to get coordinated. If he can't do that, make it as easy for him as possible to succeed at his job here.

4. Something that might work very well with your son is to have him teach Lilly (under your direction) to walk on a leash by his side. This might help avoid having Lilly walking or running up from behind him. So each time Lilly is walking or even standing on your son's side, click/treat the dog and praise your son mightily.

There are some important dos and don'ts about kids and dogs on page 222-223 of the book. Check them out.

I hope I've given you some ideas for you to work with. I probably answered much more than you wanted, but I felt these were important issues to discuss with you in light of the fact that you have a special situation with your son. I've learned from working with Autistic children that I need to be very patient with them and go at THEIR pace and not my own.

Good luck and please keep us posted on how things progress. If you need any other information, you know where to find me.

Renee Premaza

[Casey Laurie]

:yourock: Thank you! These are great suggestions >^_^<

The reason I thought it was a hierarchy issue was because Lilly no longer herds any of us anymore, except Jake. Myself, my husband, and our 14 year old daughter all have human authority status with her, but Jake does not interact with her very much. He can be hyper, but she isn't herding him at those points, she is herding him during normal activities like walking from one room to another, and blocking his path. She also bit him last week when he tried to take a bag of kitty poop away from her*****...he admitted to me that he forgot to follow "the doggie rules" of no leaning over the dogs, get a trade, and give the "drop" or "give" cue. He just got frustrated and reached for the bag and she bit him on the hand. No blood, just one tiny dent that didn't even leave a bruise. Since then I've been trying to have him do more things with her, but he gets so nervous around her. I think my criteria for him was too high though. I don't make him try to give her food by hand any more, but drop it in front or behind her, except for her dinner.

Tonight I had him spoon feed Lilly her dinner, and make her do a trick for each spoonfull. This was pretty funny because she kept looking to me for the go ahead, but I kept half an eye on her and most of my attention on him, modeling with him what to do. He got the hang of it pretty quick and soon had her devoted attention. Poor Josie got a bit sulky because she chose to scarf down her dinner in one bite, but Rusty saw what was going on and waited patiently. He wanted to be fed too!
I think I will have him do this with each of the dogs. They really enjoyed the attention. I think a BIG part of Lilly's problem with Jake is that she wants his attention. She wants Jennifer's (daughter) attention too. She steals Jen's stuff most often, and rarely mine or my husbands. Except maybe socks, lol. She loves to steal our socks.

*****Re: the bite
I actually see this as not such a bad thing. Bad yes, but also some positive things.
I found out just how bad her food aggressionand resource guarding was from the behaviorist at the shelter. Apparently she put several nasty puncture wounds in the fake hand (basically ate her way up the hand) and was extremely snarly, and took just over 30 minutes to recover from the test.

Now she recovers within a minute or two of any sort of doggie drama..sometimes just seconds. She had enough bite inhibition not to break the skin,or even leave a scratch or a bruise. I saw it as more like what an adult dog might do to a puppy that had recently lost its license.

Since then, however, the herding has escalated and she targets him any time he ventures from his room and she is up and about. Maybe since he spends most of his time there she thinks he isn't supposed to leave?

We have an extremely small living space. Our daughter has the one bedroom, our son has the alcove, and my husband and I have rigged our livingroom like a studio apartment..bedroom/livingroom/diningroom/office. We live smack dab in the middle of Allston..wich is a neighborhood in Boston. It's a very busy area with unavoidable triggers for all of my dogs.

I'm hoping that the extra attention he gives Lilly will translate into respect from her toward him as a senior pack member instead of a puppy..or if as you say it isn't hierarchal, then he's giving her attention for positive behavior so hopefully she won't feel the need to pester him with the herding.
We really pushed him tonight to pet her before bed, and to learn to do it properly.

My two dachsie-loves have taken to the crates like dens straight off

[Casey Laurie]

I think you are right about too much for my son. He should have no trouble understanding the book as it's very clearly written and he has a 10th grade reading skill level, but emotionally, he's what he is; a ten year old boy.

I do think his feeding her, and doing 5 minutes a day of clicking should be sufficient enough to help them both become more comfortable with each other. Then perhaps he will actually seek her out for interaction. That's my hope anyway :)

[Luciann]

Casey

I will just offer my moral support here...good luck with both and with patience and the help of the advisors I think you will succeed and have a happy family

[Casey Laurie]

Thanks :)

My husband and I had a chat with both of our children last night about "accessability" and attention toward the animals.

Yesterday, when Jake got home from school, I had himm immediately have each dog sit and give each a cookie, then spend 1 or 2 minutes doing puppy push-ups with Lilly. He cued, I clicked, he treated. Lilly did not nip at his heels even once, though she did start to once, then changed her mind so I called her over for a cookie since I did not have a clicker on me at the time.
He didn't spoon feed her last night, but he did put all the bowls down after cueing each dog to sit.
Later that evening, Lilly took a picked up a toy and walked over to my husband..he was playing with another dog, so she took it to Jacob..who was so involved in his computer game that he did not see her sitting there, so she came to find me. I was tending to a scraped knee and didn't see her either so she walked to Jen's (14yo daughter) room but her door was shut. Poor baby. She walked back into the living room and just stood there looking pathetic. Art witnessed all of this and broke off from playing with Josie to give her attention too, and that's when we had the meeting. This poor little dog was doing everything right and getting nothing for her trouble :(

We talked with the kids about how they need to be more accessable to the animals, and if Lilly brings them a toy then they need to encourage her. Even if we are busy, Art and I will give Lilly a few seconds of tug, or at least acknowledge her and give her a scritch behind the ears. This is such a valuable behavior and we don't want to lose it. Jake must give her at least a few minutes a day of attention and praise her if she has a toy..better yet play with her for a few seconds. Jen must leave her door open at least until after dinner, and both of them have been strongly reminded that there will be no yelling at the dogs (no more yelling PERIOD. It's mean and it doesn't help anything), I don't care what she steals. She steals because she want attention, and if you give her enough attention then she won't have to steal your stuff to get it.

Last night there were much fewer incidents of plushie thievery as well :)

[Casey Laurie]

Something occurred to me this morning...as my mother would say: "light finally dawns on marblehead."

My son needs lessons in petting. He does not really interact with the animals on a physical level. He'll toss the ball, or do a bit of clicking, but he is very nervous and jumpy about it.

Lilly needs lessons in tolerance and interaction with children.

I think tomorrow (not today because Lilly has a vet appointment later and will likely be very stressed out to begin with) we will have petting lessons.
I'll break out a bag of M&Ms and chop up some cheese sticks. I think Jake will get a kick out of the M&Ms for relaxed pets, and Lilly will get clicked and treated for being relaxed while being petted by him.

Do you think 2 minutes is long enough for a session?

[Luciann]

Casey that is great that the day went so well for Lily. I know at times one of my two will come to me for attention and i will stop what i am doing, including sleeping and give them some of my attention even if it is just half a minute.

I would say that 2 mintues to start would be a good way to start the petting training for both Lily and your son. Sometimes we forget that kids don't always know things right off. I babysit a toddler from time to time and Tika did the herding and nipping at his feet thing but it was cause he likes to stomp and it scares her. but she is now playing with him some and when she gets overwhelmed she sits with me. I have started trying to teach Austyn how to pet them, and play with them. no teasing with toys and treat, not hitting and such.

I do have to say i have more patience with my babies then with children but I do well with either it seems...lol

good luck and give lily and extra hug from me for doing so well yesterday.

[heathea]

Casey,

I just read through this entire post and it seems like you are doing an amazing job in a difficult situation. wow.
One thing caught my eye that I wanted to mention, you talked about your dog wandering around with the toy looking for someone to play with. I have always worked under the impression that we definately need to play with our dogs, however they do not get to choose when or with who. Maybe it would work better if you have a routine that your daughter and son play with the dogs from 4-5 PM or something like that? I don't know, like I said, I could be wrong, but I think that if your your children instigate and finish playtime with the pups that will cement the dogs opinion that your children as well as the adults are the benevolent leaders. You are already showing the dogs that the kids are benevolent leaders when you have them feed the dogs the way you are, this might just be a continued reinforcement of that idea.
I am certain this is not a huge issue, but it was one that caught my eye.

Take care and keep up the great work!
-Heather

[Renee Premaza]

Hi Casey and Heather!

Casey, I agree with Heather's comments here. Your goal is to have Lilly look to your children as being valuable in her life, not because she sees them as people she can demand playtime from or push balls into their legs or nip at them to get their attention. I think this IS an important aspect of the NILIF program.

Thank you Heather for picking that up, and I'm sure Casey appreciates it too.

Casey,

I just read through this entire post and it seems like you are doing an amazing job in a difficult situation. wow.
One thing caught my eye that I wanted to mention, you talked about your dog wandering around with the toy looking for someone to play with. I have always worked under the impression that we definately need to play with our dogs, however they do not get to choose when or with who. Maybe it would work better if you have a routine that your daughter and son play with the dogs from 4-5 PM or something like that? I don't know, like I said, I could be wrong, but I think that if your your children instigate and finish playtime with the pups that will cement the dogs opinion that your children as well as the adults are the benevolent leaders. You are already showing the dogs that the kids are benevolent leaders when you have them feed the dogs the way you are, this might just be a continued reinforcement of that idea.
I am certain this is not a huge issue, but it was one that caught my eye.

Take care and keep up the great work!
-Heather

[Casey Laurie]

Thanks Lucien and Heather. Lilly is getting the rest ofthe day "off" today. She's had a very stressful afternoon. WE had to take a cab to the vet, which was stressful enough, then when we got there she was so stressed out she barely noticed that "Daddy" was waiting for us there. The waiting room was full of terrified dogs making all manner of fuss. We finally got to see the vet and the exam was no fun at all. I have to admit I think she was feeding off of my own stress though, because she was snarky with the vet during the exam while I was with her, but when the vet took her in the back by herself with a tech she was perfectly fine and completed the exam and bloodwork with no problems. As long as we were there we stopped by the shelter so I could fill out a volunteer application; and it was PACKED! there were a ton of people and kids all over the place, but Lilly held it together like a real trooper :cool:
We had to wait a really long time for the right person to take the application, but Lil just got to a point where I thought it best just to leave, and there was a break in the crowd. The ride home was just as stressful, and I have a HUGE drool stain on my pants, poor pumpkin. As soon as she saw we were in our neighborhood though she perked right up. Jake just did some puppy push-ups with her and the other dogs while I'm typing this..INDEPENDENTLY! She's got a nice fat chewy now and is working off her stress. I was able to pet her and no snarks but I'm not pushing it. She gets steak for dinner tonight >^_^< and Jake got a chocolate truffle for being an awsome kid :)

As for scheduling playtime..maybe we will consider that in the future, but right now I'm trying to foster alternate behaviors to the undesireable ones and I don't want to lose a lot of these offered behaviors. This dog is so bright. She picked up on the object exchange trick for guarded items and is now building a 4.0 GPA in Canine Economics 101 ;)
She doesn't always get what she's asking for, but we at least acknowledge her offered behaviors as desireable ones and give her something, even if it's not quite what she was looking for.

I think it's time for me to learn how to really teach her some tricks in adition to the ettiquette classes,lol.

[Casey Laurie]

I totally agree, but while I don't expect them to play with her each and every time she comes to them, I do expect them not to ignore her completely when she behaves appropriately. The behavior she is offering...sitting quietly next to them with a bone shaped stuffed toy in her mouth is really something I want to encourage (and have been trying to build from day one) as it's really incompatable with nipping or pushy-ness. Is there a way to encourage this behavior without her seeing it as a way to "demand" attention? I don't see it as a demand at all, but rather a request. It doesn't mean she always gets what she's looking for exactly, but at least she'll get turned down as politely as she made the request.

Hi Casey and Heather!

Casey, I agree with Heather's comments here. Your goal is to have Lilly look to your children as being valuable in her life, not because she sees them as people she can demand playtime from or push balls into their legs or nip at them to get their attention. I think this IS an important aspect of the NILIF program.

Thank you Heather for picking that up, and I'm sure Casey appreciates it too.

[Renee Premaza]

Hi Casey!

>>Is there a way to encourage this behavior without her seeing it as a way to "demand" attention? <<

Yup! All the children have to do is have Lilly sit first. Then they can play with her or show her attention. Or... there may be times that they just can't play with her, so they can still have her sit, and then pat her or tell her "good girl." That's it!


I totally agree, but while I don't expect them to play with her each and every time she comes to them, I do expect them not to ignore her completely when she behaves appropriately. The behavior she is offering...sitting quietly next to them with a bone shaped stuffed toy in her mouth is really something I want to encourage (and have been trying to build from day one) as it's really incompatable with nipping or pushy-ness. Is there a way to encourage this behavior without her seeing it as a way to "demand" attention? I don't see it as a demand at all, but rather a request. It doesn't mean she always gets what she's looking for exactly, but at least she'll get turned down as politely as she made the request.

[Casey Laurie]

::grin:: That's exactly what we've been doing, lol. My concern was that Lilly was behaving appropriately, and the children were ignoring her.