Having a Hell of Time (Teenager?)

[Matt Yette]

Mugsy has started to become an absolute terror - there's a certain level of acceptance I've set and he's stepping WAY over the line.

He's a 7 month old Min Pin - I've got him house trained to the point where he will ring the bell for me if he has to go out - but all signs now point to him going through adolescence and seeing how far he can push me. Ever since I've had him I've been very strict with him - letting him know that he WILL listen to me - mainly for the reason that if he ever took off running, all it would take would be a shout from me and he'd stop. I have, for the last month or so, always been able to let him out back off lead, he'd pee/poop on the lawn, and he'd come running back up to the porch no problem.

As far as when I'm not home, I leave him in his crate - [large metal bar crate w/ black plastic pan in the bottom] - I would have his little bed in the back half, and a pee pad down in the front, so when he had to pee he'd get off the bed and go pee on the pad. A few weeks ago he started absolutely destroying the pads. Then he started destroying the bed - ripping the foam out, and when I got him a foamless one, he tore up the fabric! So I took everything out of the cage and put pads up on the outside of the cage so if he peed out of the cage (which he does), the pads would block it and absorb it. Turns out this morning, he apparently took one of those pads IN the cage and ripped it to shreds.

Yesterday, after I took him out to pee, he sprinted down my driveway, turned down the sidewalk and absolutely took off - to me shouting and sprinting after him. He kept on running full steam. Luckily, he never ran into the road, and I eventually caught up with him, and severely punished him. He absolutely knows better not to do this, and if he does stray, to come back when I call him. He blatantly ignored me.

I know nearly 100% of the people here are in support of +R ONLY. I am up front about the fact that I am not one of those people. When he is bad, I spank him. I am at a loss of what to do - will this end? I don't know how to keep him at home anymore when I'm alone. I've resigned to putting him in his tiny travel crate, halved with a box in the back, but I need to put a muzzle on him to keep him from screaming (sometimes) and chewing the box to shreds while he's in there. He's become a very bad boy and I'm tired of punishing him.

Any thoughts?

[Mario Niepel]

Well, Matt, of course you will get a number of suggestions from us that will a) tell you why punishing your dog is not helpful and b) we will tell you other ways you can actually achieve your goals.

I have to admit that I am a little torn here. On the one hand you post specifically on a R+ board, even though there are a number of boards out there that do not specifically advocate exclusive R+ methods. Yet, on the other hand, you tell us that you do not personally subscribe to this philosophy. So, what would you like to accomplish from posting? If we give you good advice, would you stop using punishment and switch to a R+ training approach?

Just as an example for WHY punishment in most cases does not work for you and your dog:

Luckily, he never ran into the road, and I eventually caught up with him, and severely punished him.

So, what did the dog learn from this episode? We know that dogs associate the punishment with the last act they were performing. The last act was certainly not 'leaving your property even though you were calling'. That act happened quite a while back and in the meantime your dog performed a number of other actions. For example, the dog could have thought that he was being punished for 'running on the sidewalk'. So next time he may just chose to run in the street. The dog may have though he was being punished for 'letting you catch up'. Since even the slowest dogs are superior runners, next time your dog may chose to just run a tad bit faster than you. Maybe, just before the dog let you catch up you were actually yelling a command like sit, stop, come, down, ... If so, then your dog may have learned that sitting, stopping, coming or lying down is dangerous when you are stressed and running. So, next time he may chose not to actually do what you want him to do.

Just look at it like this: Punishment can only achieve to get dogs to do whatever they can in order to avoid being punished again. However, in virtually all cases, dogs do not have the slightest idea why they are punished, so they have no clue how to avoid punishment in the future. Dogs will NEVER generalize to the point that they realize they are punished for NOT OBEYING your commands. They only learn that sometimes specific actions lead to punishment and sometimes they do not. In the case that you described, your dog certainly did not learn what to do the next time around in order not to get 'severly punished'.

That is one of the reasons why we do not advocate punishment as a training tool.

EDIT: Just out of curiosity, since you said you punish your dog when he knowingly does something wrong, did you punish your pup for ripping up puppy pads, foam beds and the fabric of foamless beds?

[Renee]

Hi Matt


Luckily, he never ran into the road, and I eventually caught up with him, and severely punished him. He absolutely knows better not to do this, and if he does stray, to come back when I call him. He blatantly ignored me.

A few things here. Your dog is only 7 months old, so this is way too young to be reliable off lead. How much recall training have you done and what kind of reinforcement history has your dog had? Have you worked the 3 D's - distance, distraction and duration? It seems to me that you are setting your dog up to fail and then severely punishing him for it. I would also gather that he has no idea why your are punishing him because you are doing so way after the fact. This is an excellent way to make your dog afraid of you and will totally wreck your recall training as well as you relationship with him. I'm sure if you give him the chance, he will run away from you again.

If you are interested, here is a good article about recall training...
http://www.clickersolutions .com/articles/2002/recall.htm

I would also have to recommend that you read the Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson. It will get you up to speed on how dogs learn.


I know nearly 100% of the people here are in support of +R ONLY. I am up front about the fact that I am not one of those people. When he is bad, I spank him. I am at a loss of what to do - will this end? I don't know how to keep him at home anymore when I'm alone. I've resigned to putting him in his tiny travel crate, halved with a box in the back, but I need to put a muzzle on him to keep him from screaming (sometimes) and chewing the box to shreds while he's in there. He's become a very bad boy and I'm tired of punishing him.

Any thoughts?

Yes, we support +R, but also -P and management too. Thank you for being upfront about how you deal with your dog. I'm glad to hear that you are tired of punishing him....because it's obviously not working for you. A few questions - How do you deal with destructive chewing? Why is your dog screaming in the crate? Are you punishing these things after the fact?

[Matt Yette]

Thank you for your replies - I'll give more information now.

As far as punishing him when I get home and he's been destructive in his crate - no, I'm most certainly disappointed and he knows that because he kinda of sulks and lowers his head. Normally I'd greet him happily (not spastically), and rub his ears and hug him, but when I come home and see a huge mess, I'm too bothered by it to force myself to praise him. So I'll just go about cleaning up his mess and move on, feed him dinner, take him out, etc. I realize that punishing him when I get home would serve zero purpose - he obviously has no idea that what he did 4 hours ago was what ticked me off. Maybe it's my mannerism when I come in - but he seems to "auto-sulk" when I come in and he's made a mess. Is it possible that he corrolates his mess with my disappointment? It's just that he can't help it?

I only punish directly when he's done something wrong - when I am very certain he associates it with his deed. It's never a "come here", and when he does, he gets punished - I would be punishing for listening to me. I'm forthcoming with my methods because everyone here seems like good people, and to lie would do none of us any good. There are different opinions and methods to everything - if my parents had never given me a spanking, I might have grown up not respecting their authority whatsoever due to there not being consequences.

I appreciate you all taking the time to discuss this with me, and being as honest and open as possible. Given that, I want to be just as open and forthcoming. Perhaps there can be another discussion started at a later/separate time in which we can discuss +R/-R and its points. I have some things that I wish to clear up but they are for another time.

As far as him being too young to be reliable off lead - yes, normally I would agree. And I still do when it comes to taking walks, going places, or anywhere near the road. Out in the back of my house he's been EXTREMELY obeying, doing his business then coming straight back to the house. And in the few times he's tiptoed down the driveway, a quick recall by me brings him back. This time, however, he decided early on that he was taking a sprint and not coming back. This has been 1-2 months worth of him being completely good with me out back. That's what strikes me as the most odd - he's extremely intelligent - but this intelligence seems to be forgotten when they do something wrong. If the bar can be set for tricks, emotions, etc - then shouldn't we be consistent and carry that over to discipline?

Mugsy screams in his crate sometimes - sometimes he doesn't. He doesn't like being in there alone, but it's basically moreso since his bad phase has started. He used to sleep in his bed quietly. Now I've had to remove all objects from inside the crate to keep him from destroying them.

Believe it or not, I've set up a server to monitor him - it isn't live yet but will be tomorrow - I'll have full video coverage of him in the crate that I can watch, and I plan on setting it up to have a pair of speakers so periodically during the day he can hear my voice, as well as possibly calming him down if he is yelling or thrashing (not sure if that'll be a problem since I'm leaving the cage empty). I know its a nerdy, extreme thing to do but I'm running out of ideas.

[Mario Niepel]

I only punish directly when he's done something wrong - when I am very certain he associates it with his deed. It's never a "come here", and when he does, he gets punished - I would be punishing for listening to me. I'm forthcoming with my methods because everyone here seems like good people, and to lie would do none of us any good. There are different opinions and methods to everything - if my parents had never given me a spanking, I might have grown up not respecting their authority whatsoever due to there not being consequences.

Matt, so how exactly did the sequence play out when he ran away from you, you started chasing after him and in the end he ended up being close enough to you for you to punish him severly? It seems to me that the last thing your dog did was a 'good' thing. Either coming to you, letting you catch up, sitting, failing to run away further, ... If your dog didn't do any of these things, how would you have gotten close enough to punish? And, if my premise is correct, why would you think the dog associates the punishment with running away and not with the hundreds of intervening activities that occured between leaving your property and receiving the punishment?

[Matt Yette]

Matt, so how exactly did the sequence play out when he ran away from you, you started chasing after him and in the end he ended up being close enough to you for you to punish him severly? It seems to me that the last thing your dog did was a 'good' thing. Either coming to you, letting you catch up, sitting, failing to run away further, ... If your dog didn't do any of these things, how would you have gotten close enough to punish? And, if my premise is correct, why would you think the dog associates the punishment with running away and not with the hundreds of intervening activities that occured between leaving your property and receiving the punishment?

When he began bolting down the driveway/sidewalk I was screaming his name, as well as commands like NO, SIT, COME HERE while chasing after him. I eventually ran him down and grabbed him. Do you all really think he let me catch up? I don't know...he was running pretty hard, and I know I was full out after him - it seems like I just gained and gained and eventually caught up. Nearly passed out on my kitchen floor afterwards.

When he turned down the sidewalk he basically just sprinted down the block, with me calling/running after him. My reasoning is that he heard my (angry) voice yelling after him, chose to ignore it, and when I caught him, he knew that by not listening to me he was a very bad dog.

[Mario Niepel]

Well, I doubt that you actually outran your dog... but even if you did, your dog will not associate the punishment with running away from you, but with the last thing that actually happened... namely you catching him. So, the next time he runs away and hears your angry yelling, do you think he will come back or do you think he will expect to be punished and try his best not to be caught?

Also, why do you think your dog should heed you when you are obviously angry and yelling at him? Where is the incentive or motivation for the dog to turn around and come back to you?

Finally, dogs do not know about being good or bad. These are moral judgements that dogs just are not capable of making. Dogs roughly divide their world in safe and dangerous or in pleasant and unpleasant. Why would a dog think he is bad when he starts bolting down the block? It's perfectly normal dog behavior to run. Furthermore, if another dog or person joins in the chase, then you started a chase game. Even more normal dog behavior to run. Finally, if the dog realizes you are angry and possible punishment is forthcoming, then running away makes even more sense to the dog. Just think about it... if you were the dog, would you be 'good', and if so, why?

[Matt Yette]

So, the next time he runs away and hears your angry yelling, do you think he will come back or do you think he will expect to be punished and try his best not to be caught?

I go on the hope that - "Geez - I never bolted before, and I never got yelled at for running around the house, but running away down the driveway sure got me yelled at and punished. Maybe I won't do that again."

Just think about it... if you were the dog, would you be 'good', and if so, why?

But this is where the confusion lies - you're asking me to apply logic to the dog's thought process - but you state that the dog doesn't process reason using this. So it wouldn't matter if I was the dog, correct?

[Renee]

Matt-


As far as punishing him when I get home and he's been destructive in his crate - no, I'm most certainly disappointed and he knows that because he kinda of sulks and lowers his head.

Glad to know that you aren't punishing for destructive chewing...most of the time positive punishment makes destructive chewing worse because of the stress that the punishment creates. If your dog is sulking, then he is picking up on the fact you are angry and he probably acting that way to appease you or calm you down. This could be one of many contributing factors to the destructive chewing.



I only punish directly when he's done something wrong - when I am very certain he associates it with his deed.

There are consequences to deal with when using positive punishment techniques - we call it behaviorial fallout. Most situations are easily and effectively solved with +R,-P and management.

How you are certain that he associates it with "his deed"? Just taking a look at how you handled the situation when Mugsy ran away from you, I have to say that there is no way that he made the desired associations. If anything, he associated the punishment with you....If you have effectively used +P, then you wouldn't be having the problems that you are having. I'm not a proponet of +P, but it seems to me that you severely punished your dog for not coming to you - well after the fact. If a correction does not happen within 0.5 seconds of the behavior, then that is a misuse of +P. Plus, running after your dog while screaming at him, then severely punishing him is not going to solve your recall problem...in fact it will probably make it worse. Again, what kind of reinforcement history do you have with your Min Pin?

Side note - never chase after your dog for any reason. If you get in this habit (even in an recall emergency), then the dog will run away from you. Play chase games, where your dog chases you! This will help your recall training.


There are different opinions and methods to everything - if my parents had never given me a spanking, I might have grown up not respecting their authority whatsoever due to there not being consequences.

While dog training is full of opinions, it is also full of consequences. A full understanding of what a dog is cognigively capable of, understanding how dogs learn and understanding learning theory is also necessary when it comes making smart decisions when training a dog. We know that aversive stimuli can create a fight/flight response such as aggression, fear, or submission. This can harm human-dog relationship and can often interfere with the lesson that was intended.

I don't use +P (spanking/hitting etc) with my dog, but that doesn't mean that there aren't consequences in her life. -P can be a very effective tool and my dog fully understands the consequences of her actions.

Here is an article that best demonstrates this point. http://www.clickersolutions .com/articles/2001b/humans.htm


Perhaps there can be another discussion started at a later/separate time in which we can discuss +R/-R and its points. I have some things that I wish to clear up but they are for another time.

I'm not really interested in getting into a +R/-P vs -R/+P discussion. We have had this discussion many times over on doggie bag. If you are interested in learning more, you can look through many of the threads in the dog training philosophy forum. I have discussed learning theory there in the past and listed specific rules/consequences of using +P/-R.


As far as him being too young to be reliable off lead - yes, normally I would agree.

I agree also...


Out in the back of my house he's been EXTREMELY obeying, doing his business then coming straight back to the house.

Maybe he finds your backyard quite boring, and this is why you have good recall there. You have to work recall through increasingly difficult distractions


And in the few times he's tiptoed down the driveway, a quick recall by me brings him back. This time, however, he decided early on that he was taking a sprint and not coming back. This has been 1-2 months worth of him being completely good with me out back.

1-2 months is not that very long of a time, especially if you have not been actively working and rewarding his recall through increased distance, duration and distraction.



That's what strikes me as the most odd - he's extremely intelligent - but this intelligence seems to be forgotten when they do something wrong. If the bar can be set for tricks, emotions, etc - then shouldn't we be consistent and carry that over to discipline?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this.... We have a bar that can be set in dog training, but I think that you have set the bar sky high for your Min Pin and haven't realized the amount of work required to achieve your goals. No judgements, just an observation. Matt, don't belive the Lassie myth...that is why I would really have to recommend Jean Donaldson's book The Culture Clash. I think it would really help put much of this into perspective for you.


Mugsy screams in his crate sometimes - sometimes he doesn't. He doesn't like being in there alone, but it's basically moreso since his bad phase has started. He used to sleep in his bed quietly. Now I've had to remove all objects from inside the crate to keep him from destroying them.

Do you think that Mugsy could be developing a case of Separation Anxiety? I'm glad that you are going to set up a camera and watch him during the day. Let us know what you find out.

If you are interested in working on recall with Mugsy and don't know where to begin, I can recommend some great DVD's on the topic. Sometimes it just helps to see someone in action. Let me know.

[Mario Niepel]

I go on the hope that - "Geez - I never bolted before, and I never got yelled at for running around the house, but running away down the driveway sure got me yelled at and punished. Maybe I won't do that again."

Unfortunately, as I (and Renee) pointed out, the punishment you gave will not be associated with running away from the drive way. It will be associated with the last action the dog did: slowing down, sitting, letting itself be caught, you running after it yelling, ... So the thought process you discribed above will not take place.

But this is where the confusion lies - you're asking me to apply logic to the dog's thought process - but you state that the dog doesn't process reason using this. So it wouldn't matter if I was the dog, correct?

Not quite correct. I said that dogs do not divide decisions into good or bad. Those are moral values that dogs just do not share with humans. In a dogs mind there is nothing inherently bad about chewing up a $10.000 persian rug, peeing against your box full of family pictures or eating the family rabbit. Dogs divide the world into things that are either safe or dangerous to the dog or into things that are pleasant or unpleasant.

So, the dog ran away not to be bad, but because it was fun. Running down the street is fun, therefore the dog will want to do it. Being chased by a person is also fun. It's a chase game... so the dog may want to initiate that chase game by running down the street. Being caught, sitting still, slowing down in order to get punished is not fun (its unpleasant or dangerous) so the dog will avoid doing it in the future. So overall the episode taught the dog: running away from the yard nets Mugsy a) running and exploring (good things) and b) a chase game (good thing). So far running away has a positive reinforcement history so it will most likely happen again. Slowing down or waiting up when my owner yells at me nets Mugsy a) severe punsihment (bad thing), b) end of chase game (bad thing) and c) end of exploring and running (bad thing). So, getting caught by you does not have a positive reinforcement history and will most likely be avoided in the future.

So, by looking at the situation from a dogs point of view you can try and predict what will happen in the future. That's why I suggested you try and put yourself in the dogs shoes and figure out what you would do.

[Stefie C]

Hi Matt, I have to tell you your post makes me very sad. Sad for your pooch and sad for you. I truly believe that you will achieve a more joyful and happy relationship with your dog using +R. Mario & Renee are far more qualified to give you advice so I will just tell you about my experience with two different dogs using two diff. training styles. Years ago we got a black lab puppy. She was quiet a handful so I asked the vet we used at the time what we could do to get her under control & he suggested an obedience that was getting ready to start at the local community college, so I signed us up. The class advertised it used positive methods only and then said all dogs must be on a choke chain. So I bought Boomer a choke chain and off we went to class. At the 1st class I was trying to listen to the instructor but Boomer was more interested in playing with all the other dogs and was pulling me all over the place. After just a couple of minutes the trainer asked if she could take control of my dog. I was more that happy to let her do that. She worked with Boomer for just a couple of minutes pulling up on the leash and pushing down on her rump telling her to sit. She finally managed to get her into a sitting position and then told her to stay. As soon as the dog moved the trainer jerked on the leash to correct Boomer and then forced her to sit again. She did this a few times each time jerking harder on the leash to give a correction. Finally, she jerked the leash so hard Boomer was jerked off her feet & landed on her side. After that she sat by the trainers side and didn't move until I went to get her. The whole class, idiots that we were, thought this was very impressive and I quickly implemented jerking her off her feet as a training tool. I still had lots of trouble training Boomer. The trainer explained to me this was because Boomer was very dominate. One of the most dominate bitches she'd ever encountered was the way she put it. She told me I was going to have to toughen up and be a bigger ***** than Boomer if I was going to get control of her. To do this she taught me to do alpha rolls and I did exactly as she taught me. If Boomer "defied" me, I chased her down, threw her to the ground, rolled her on her back and stared at her until she looked away. My neighbors probably thought I was insane! Anyway, I did everything the trainer said to do and worked very hard at it. By the end of the class Boomer had improved so much that we graduated 3rd in the class and received a special award for most improved. The problem was, Boomer would only behave if she was on a choke collar and leash. Off the leash she would absolutely not do anything you asked. In the house the minute you'd take your eyes off her, she'd run into the living room and pee in the floor. While you were cleaning that up she'd be chewing on one table leg or another. We tried to leave her in a bathroom while we were gone but after she chewed her way thru the door on one occasion and the wall another time we gave up and built her an outside run with access to a room off the garage. Although her needs were met, food, water & shelter, I'm sure it wasn't a happy life for her. I remember checking a few books out from the library and they all advocated the same training style as my class was using. Our vet had suggested the trainer so I felt I had done all I could do and I guess I did with what resources I had available to me at the time. Boomer only lived 7 years and when she became sick and had to be put down it was frankly a relief. I think about her so often now and wish I had known about truly positive training then. I firmly believe it would have made a huge difference in the quality of her life.

After Boomer was gone I vowed to never own another dog and we didn't have a dog for nearly 8 years. About a year ago I began really yearning for a dog but didn't say anything about it. Then my son asked if we could get one. He had found DoggieDoor on the Internet and started telling me about +R. I was skeptical at 1st but continued to read & learn more about it. Then we met our Sandy who was 11 months old at the time and needing a home. I had a weak moment and agreed to take her. Soon after we brought her home I began to panic when she'd get into a little mischief. Visions of Boomer were dancing through my head. But we all started using NILIF religiously. We also praised & treated every good thing she did and totally ignored anything naughty. I'm proud to say my son (age 17) was so very good at this and I learned a lot from watching him. He & I have worked together with Sandy and in just a few months we have a dog who we can take out to potty off leash & she won't leave our side unless we tell her to go play. Her recall is fantastic. We take her to the country every weekend now and she romps in the creek and thru the fields but never going to far from us and always coming back when we call. Coming back happily too. I think that is the key. When she obeys she does it happily and joyfully. Not because she fears the consequences. I can just click my tongue and she will come happily charging at me and dance at my feet waiting to be petted and praised. She's a happy dog and we are happy dog owners and that is what I wish for you Matt. It is very hard to just turn your back and ignore a jumping dog. It's hard not to chase down a "defiant" pup and punish him/her. It's hard to teach sit or down without pushing the dog into position. It takes a lot of patience but it works. I promise you it works and it's so worth it. We still have lots of things we want to teach. Loose leash walking is next on our list and I am confident that we'll accomplish that too.

You may think that this proves nothing. These were just 2 different dogs, one good & one bad but I don’t think so. There are times with Sandy when I see behaviors that are exactly like Boomer but she behaves & reacts differently because we behave differently. I firmly believe that if I’d have known about +R then, Boomer would have been a different and much, much happier dog. And we would have been much happier dog owners.

As far as the SA goes, I think taking things out of the crate is the wrong way to go. We had just a little bit of a problem with that and putting more things for her to do in the crate helped so much. A Kong toy is great, especially with some peanut butter stuffed way down in so she really has to work at it. We tie toys to the top of her crate and she plays tug with them or chews thru the sock to free them. We always leave her a stuffed toy. She loves pulling the stuffing out of them. The 1st of every months I go to a few garage sales and stock up on cheap stuffed toys. Then I pull the eyes or anything that might be a choking hazard off. It’s a cheap way to have lots of toys for her to destroy and I find as long she has her own things to chew on she leaves our things alone. We hide dog biscuits under her bedding so she has to hunt for them. I keep a special treat for her just for when she goes into her crate. Now I just show her the treat & she goes into the crate and waits for the treat. I give it to her without any fanfare. Just give her the treat & latch the crate & leave. She's quiet when we go & she's quiet when we come back and waits patiently until we release her.

Matt I really encourage to begin reading everything you can that promotes positive training. When we 1st began with Sandy I read some of the DoggieDoor articles over & over everyday. There are lots of good articles here on DoggieBag too and links to other sites full of useful information. I find it helps me to keep my head in and +R frame of mind if I am reading a book so I almost always have a book with me. I’m having trouble remembering titles right now except for Jan Fennell’s The Dog Listener. I really liked that one and it helped me a lot. There is a thread in the Dog Training Philosophy & Methods forum called Book Recommendations on +R Training Methods that has lots of good recommendations. I just bumped it for you. I hope you’ll really give +R a try and I think deep down you must think it’s the best way to go or you wouldn’t be here seeking guidance. Good Luck to you and Mugsy!

[Peggy Jensen]

Just wanted to add my 2 cents worth. I wholeheartedly agree with only using positive training methods and let me tell you why.
I have a 3 yr. old mini-schnauzer who will still bite me to the point of drawing blood if I try to grab ahold of him or pick him up roughly and here is what I think the reason is.
When I first got him he was 7 weeks old, so of course had no training at all, being my first dog, I had no training either. The only thing I had to go on is what little bit I picked up from my parents attempts at having a dog when I was a kid. Which was forcing the dog to do what you tell it, so that it would know you were the boss. If he snapped or tried to bite, I put my hand on his back and held him down until he settled down. If he wouldn't go in his crate, I would grab him and roughly put him in the crate, or give him a good shake. I am so sorry now that I ever did that, I never did hit him, and luckily my son's girlfriend got a dog and went to a puppy class that used positive training and I learned that I was going the wrong way. We got a crate and he was crate trained for housebreaking and never had a problem with that.
He is a very good boy now, but still scared when anybody seems to get angry at him, and I know that is why he bites, I don't know if he will ever get over that.
I strongly urge you to try the positive approach, you will be much happier and so will your dog. I still have feel guilty about my baby's first couple of months with me.

[Chris Smith]

Mario's and Renee's responses to this post have been so helpful to me (and hopefully to Matt) in understanding how dog's think and behave. Thank you so much for giving such thorough and complete responses to Matt so that he (and all of us) can understand our dogs better and do what is best for them. I have only used +R with Nalu, and the more I read, the more thankful I am that I was exposed to this when I first got him.

Stefie - your story is so sad about Boomer. Especially for a lab that is usually so easy to train and such a happy breed. But it is also inspiring and great encouragement to use +R and to take the time to work with your dog. I'm so glad that you and your son found doggiedoor and have given Sandy the chance to be a happy and well behaved dog.

[Melissa Brunoehler]

Hi Matt~

You are giving your puppy way too much credit. When he does something that you view as bad he is not knowingly disobeying you. As others stated he ran off because running at that moment was a lot more fun than hanging out in the yard by you. Why would he want to come to someone that was angrily yelling at him?

I take my dogs hiking off leash where they are allowed to chase things & run free. They always check in with me & always come back, even without me calling them. They choose on their own to come back because they view me as safe & provider of good things!

Dogs are not little robots that we can program to behave exactly how we want. Nor are they little humans!
Have you ever read Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson? I think you will find it interesting, it’s focus is not +R training, rather it’s an insightful look at our world from a dog’s perspective- Sort of how you might feel if you were abducted by & forced to live with aliens.

I know that you stated that you are not into +R, but I think you see that your way is not working?
It seems that you are only becoming more & more frustrated.

I wish that you would take your pup to a +R trainer in your area.
Here are some sites to help you find a trainer if you choose to do so-

http://www.apdt.com/trainers-and-owners/trainer-search/choosing-a-trainer.htm


http://www.iaabc.org/c_locator_dogs_ne.ht m

http://www.acabn.com/caninedirectory.html


Mugsy has started to become an absolute terror - there's a certain level of acceptance I've set and he's stepping WAY over the line.

He's a 7 month old Min Pin - I've got him house trained to the point where he will ring the bell for me if he has to go out - but all signs now point to him going through adolescence and seeing how far he can push me. Ever since I've had him I've been very strict with him - letting him know that he WILL listen to me - mainly for the reason that if he ever took off running, all it would take would be a shout from me and he'd stop. I have, for the last month or so, always been able to let him out back off lead, he'd pee/poop on the lawn, and he'd come running back up to the porch no problem.

As far as when I'm not home, I leave him in his crate - [large metal bar crate w/ black plastic pan in the bottom] - I would have his little bed in the back half, and a pee pad down in the front, so when he had to pee he'd get off the bed and go pee on the pad. A few weeks ago he started absolutely destroying the pads. Then he started destroying the bed - ripping the foam out, and when I got him a foamless one, he tore up the fabric! So I took everything out of the cage and put pads up on the outside of the cage so if he peed out of the cage (which he does), the pads would block it and absorb it. Turns out this morning, he apparently took one of those pads IN the cage and ripped it to shreds.

Yesterday, after I took him out to pee, he sprinted down my driveway, turned down the sidewalk and absolutely took off - to me shouting and sprinting after him. He kept on running full steam. Luckily, he never ran into the road, and I eventually caught up with him, and severely punished him. He absolutely knows better not to do this, and if he does stray, to come back when I call him. He blatantly ignored me.

I know nearly 100% of the people here are in support of +R ONLY. I am up front about the fact that I am not one of those people. When he is bad, I spank him. I am at a loss of what to do - will this end? I don't know how to keep him at home anymore when I'm alone. I've resigned to putting him in his tiny travel crate, halved with a box in the back, but I need to put a muzzle on him to keep him from screaming (sometimes) and chewing the box to shreds while he's in there. He's become a very bad boy and I'm tired of punishing him.

Any thoughts?

[Mickelle Weber]

hey matt,
one thought: i once read that min pins should never be trusted off lead...because of their curious and often absentminded natures(this was on a min pin info site) i'm not sure exactly how reliable this is, just thought i would share...we have worked on cleo's recall(about the same age as mugsy) and she will listen in all sorts of situations, except when there is something she wants(we've even worked with distractions..) so good luck basically! i think the monitoring thing is an awesome idea!! you should market that thing!