Okay, you asked.... (sorry so long)

[Sheryl]

Please feel free to move this to the defensive dogs if you think it's better there. I have posted about Harley and his separation anxiety as well as some of his other behaviours, but let me put my current biggest concern into a new thread. I have actually been considering whether or not I can keep him because of his behaviour towards kids. I want to be able to trust him with kids, because my boyfriend (Maurice) has two (age 9 and 14) and so does my sister (aged 1 and 3). (And thanks to those who have already posted suggestions to my other postings, as well as the private email!)
Last weekend we went for a cookout, and I had Harley on a long line so I could reel him back in if need be. The 9 year old boy (Logan) left the campsite and went to the truck, and then when he came back Harley freaked out on him (Logan was in sight the whole time). By freaked out, I mean running right up to him (actually, I think he even bumps into the person) barking with all the hair up all the way down his back. Harley will do the same thing if a person (adult or child) comes into our yard or walks by on the street if he's not on a leash/long line. He has never bitten anyone.
Also if Harley and I are at my boyfriend's house, Logan is usually in his bedroom. Maurice and I will be in the living room, and any time that Logan comes out of his room or down the hall or into the living room, Harley will growl at him as soon as he sees him. I keep Harley on a leash, but if he wasn't on a leash, he would do the freak out thing (it happened when I first got Harley, and before I knew that he would do it).
Harley will also freak out at kids (and adults too, but not as bad as kids) on bikes and skateboards.
I have been working on giving him treats as soon as we see the threat (ie- when we are out for walks, as soon as he sees the kid on a bike and then again when we pass the bike; or at Maurice's house as soon as Logan comes into site I start feeding treats).
I have emailed the behaviour specialist that I am working with, and she thought that if Harley was tied up and Logan was free maybe Harley was frustrated and got aggressive. But Harley is usually not tied to anything, or else if in the house I am holding the leash.
I don't know how to know when the behaviour is too bad to have him around kids. I can't really put him into boarding or get someone to watch him when I go to my sister's because of the separation anxiety. So if he can't be around kids I'd have to give him back to the rescue.But at what point is that? He's so attached to me, I don't really want to have to give him back, but if his reactions to kids are getting worse I also don't want someone to get bitten. Some days this really stresses me out.
Thanks for listening. I'd love to hear any suggestions, from other dog owners or from the 'experts'.
Sheryl

[Luciann]

Sheryl,

First is Harley neutered? Have you tried working with a behaviorist about his aggression. Are you on NILIF? Sorry i have not read your previous posts.

I am no expert, but working with Frodo after Tika came to live with us, getting him neutered helped but also the NILIf helped. when i had problems with getting his collar back on him once when he pulled out of it i had to desensitize him to it. You might start trying that to kids and bikes and stuff.

[Renee Premaza]

Hi Sheryl,

You said, "The 9 year old boy (Logan) left the campsite and went to the truck, and then when he came back Harley freaked out on him"

Did Logan race back to the campsite? I can picture a young boy running full tilt, which is what might have gotten Harley all out of joint. Harley is a Pitbull mix, right? A trainer friend of mine once told me that Pitbulls can be very reactive with movement. Was Logan screaming or speaking in a high-pitched voice, or was he flailing his arms at anytime? Children's behavior, like this can get dog's into prey mode. Kids screaming and running and flailing their arms sound like wounded prey.

I apologize that I'm not that familiar with Harley, so I'm asking a lot of questions. I know you had ordered a Sensation Harness for Harley (read another post), but is that helping at all? I think you might want to consider using a Gentle Leader for this dog. A gentle leader will give you complete control and your dog will not be able to lunge at anyone when he's wearing it. One of the benefits of keeping a GL on the dog is that it can help make him feel more relaxed because of where it sits on the back of his head (a pressure point). Here's a link to get info and may order it:

www.bargraph.com/gentleleader.html

How do you behave around the children that Harley is becoming reactive with? Could he be doing some resource guarding of you with the kids?

You said, "I have been working on giving him treats as soon as we see the threat (ie- when we are out for walks, as soon as he sees the kid on a bike and then again when we pass the bike; or at Maurice's house as soon as Logan comes into site I start feeding treats)."

That's good advice as long as you're maintaining distance! If you're too close then Harley is not feeling safe and comfortable. This has to be done at distance where Harley feels safe in order to teach him to feel safe at lesser distances.

You want to avoid *flooding* Harley with meeting too many kids at one time. Perhaps he was not well socialized with children to begin with, and now all of a sudden he has to deal with them without learning about them first.

Your behaviorist should really come to your home or to Maurice's home to work directly with you and your dog on a desensitization and counterconditioning program. Behavior modification should really be done one-on-one until the professional knows that the client is doing it correctly. Not only that, your behaviorist should really have met Harley to get a feel for what could be causing the behavior.

The most important thing of all is keeping everyone safe. If Harley is having a hard time dealing with Maurice's son, it might be a good idea not to bring Harley there. I would begin to do remedial socialization work first (maybe at a park where kids play), but AT A DISTANCE!

[Sheryl]

Thanks for the responses. Harley is a 2 year old Lab x ?Mastiff, he weight 120 pounds, he is neutered. He lived with his mom and three siblings until he was 1 1/2, and then his owner got sick and had to give them all up. I don't think he had much exposure to kids.
One of my problems is that I live in a very remote area, a small community in Northern Alberta with no road access except in the winter when the lakes are frozen! So having a behavior specialist come here is kinda out of the question unfortunately. I did start the NILIF program not that long ago.
I am definately careful not to get too close to anything that might be threatening to him when we are on our walks. Even though some people look at me weirdly, I'll tell kids on bikes not to come close because my dog doesn't like it. Better to be thought of as crazy than to have a bad incident!
I am trying to remember the campsite episode. I think he was probably running (he's kinda high energy), but don't think he was yelling or waving his arms (although just with the running he might have been moving his arms too much for Harley's liking).
Another part of the problem is his separation anxiety, and that I am afraid to leave Harley alone in the evening when I want to be with my boyfriend. I leave Harley all day while I am at work, and generally take him with me anywhere I go after work (which isn't much.... there isn't much social life in this small town). I am afraid that if I left him alone again in the evening his separation anxiey might get worse again.
I think you might be right with the resource guarding with me, but don't know what to do about it. If I was somewhere totally neutral, like when I have been somewhere like an airport, Harley loves everyone and isn't reactive at all. He is most reactive to things at my house (like everthing going past, and people on the property), and then his behavior at Maurice's. When out for walks, he is much less reactive on leash than off leash... if he was off leash he'd run up to everyone barking with his hair up.
I just got the right size Sensation Harness in the mail yesterday, so we did a bit of walking on it just up and down the street. I'll keep you posted, and will look into a gentle leader.
I am again feeling discouraged.... when does a person know that it isn't going to work? How and when do you decide that the match between you and the dog isn't right?
Anyways... thanks for helping.
Sheryl

[Luciann]

Sheryl

I want to wish you good luck. I know that it is discouraging but with time and working with him I think it will work out. I know since i take my two with me everywhere i go after i get off work, simply cause they are home alone all day.

I wish that i had a quick and easy solution, or that anyone did for your problem. Just remember we are all here for you..

[Sharon Alcon]

Since you got Harley when he was older you don't really know what kids might have done to him in the past. I know my mom had a doxie that hated kids but would just run and hide when my nieces and nephew would come over. She was a mini and with the kids running around she would get stepped on and did not associate anything good with the kids so she would just go away until they left or she would go jump on a adults lap and sleep. I don't know that's a thought?? If Harley is ok with the kids while your there is there a way to get them to participate in his routine so maybe he see's they fill up his food dish or when you walk him maybe click a second leash so you still have control but he feels like they are walking him too?? Maybe even have (the older ones) help train, calling him to give a treat or sit?? I have my nieces when they come over help around the dogs because they don't see them that often. So the girls will each feed one dog and give them a cookie in the morning. I have them give them the commands and it makes the kids happy to see they get a result and they are helping.
Harley might see them as a more positive thing. Also I know my dog did not like roller blades & scooters but did not mind bikes. I figured out it was the different sound of the wheels on the cement the rubber wheels don't make that scratching sound. I have to make him sit while they go by.

[Renee Premaza]

Hi Sheryl,

You said, "I am again feeling discouraged.... when does a person know that it isn't going to work? How and when do you decide that the match between you and the dog isn't right?"

I suppose the answer to that question would depend on each individual situation and the owner's commitment to the dog. Harley hasn't bitten anyone, but if YOU feel like this situation is too much for you to handle or you're not really motivated to work with him, then only you can make that decision. When you're dealing with a dog who is not socialized well with kids, and your life includes children at every turn, then you have to decide if you're up for this challenge. All trainers and behaviorists hope that dogs with behavior problems can stay in their homes -- that's why we do what we do. But a child's safety is of utmost importance.

I wish I could offer you a quick fix for this, but there's no such thing. Harley's training needs to include behavior modification. Desensitization and counterconditioning takes awhile because it must start very slowly. If you work too fast, you'd be flooding the dog and that generally makes this type of situation worse very quickly.

If you could even email your behaviorist on a daily basis and get her to give you explicit instructions on how to work with Harley, you might be able to see improvements much faster than if you do this completely on your own.

I would recommend that you contact an excellent trainer by the name of Jen Shryock. Jen specializes in families and dogs and is very experienced in dealing with problems similar to what you're experiencing. You can contact her at www.familypaws.com I'm sure that you could also work by phone with her. Her phone number is also on her website.

[Sheryl]

Thanks again for the responses. I will definately be in contact with Jen SHyrock and see if I can get more help. I did have Logan (the 9 year old) tell Harley to sit yesterday, and Harley did it. Logan thought it was pretty cool, but he is still definately scared of him.
I know that all of this takes time, and that there are no quick fixes. I am committed to working with Harley and have thought many times about giving him back to the rescue, but decided to try to work with him (I have had him for a year, the separation anxiety has been since November, but the aggression towards kids/ bikes/ etc seems to be getting worse again instead of better). But some days right now it seems like I have him just because I did adopt him and therefore am committed to him and not because I like him very much. Does that make sense? I don't want to be one of those people who gives their dog back just because he's too big or too loud or some other poor excuse. But some days he's too much for me (I only weigh 5 pounds more than him) and some days I'm scared that he is going to hurt someone because I can't hold him back if he really decided to go after someone, and some days I think of how much easier a smaller dog would be (he's too big to fly on one of the two small airlines that serves my community, too big for WestJet except by the freight company which is WAY too expensive, and some days he is just plain scary how big and loud he is).
Okay, now I am just venting so I will stop. Thanks for listening.
Sheryl

[Sharon Alcon]

I think that's why this is all here is for people to vent and get stuff out there. Sometimes when you feel like your alone it can drive you more crazy but if you can talk about it you get a weight off you chest and you can deal with it again, jump back in.

You should also take into consideration if you are doing this just for you and because you want to make it work?? What about Harley maybe after everything is tried you may want to ask the question of where he would be most happy?? Maybe a house with no kids where he gets 1 on 1 attention would be best for him this must be stressful to him also trying to deal with what ever problems he is having. I really wish dogs could talk sometimes, I'd like to know what they are thinking so we can help fix what is wrong.

Good Luck and I hope everything works out where every one can be happy and live together.

[Sheryl]

I have had a really stressful couple of weeks.
I spent time at my sister's farm and Harley was a different dog. He respected and listened to both my sister and her husband, he didn't freak out, he respected the horses, he never tried to run away. He followed my brother in law around the farm all day and then was a perfect gentleman in the house in the evening. He loved it!
I resigned from my current job, and will be starting a job where I will be flying in and out of smaller communities for two to four weeks at a time, and then back here for equal time. I don't think that will be fair to him, and I don't think it will help with his insecurity. I talked to the people at the rescue and they understand my situation. I don't want to be a person who gives up their dog because it he inconvenient or too much trouble, but I have been thinking about where Harley will be happiest (thanks for putting that in my head, Sharon, so that I'm not just thinking about myself). I am heartbroken but do think it will be for the best.
I guess I just need some reassurance that I am not an awful pet owner, and that it might be the right decision. Right now I feel like I don't deserve to ever have another dog.