Training Class with Choker Chains???

[Eric Vecc]

Hi all - I would like to comment on a training class I start tomorrow. It is being held at the Community College and is outside!!! First off, I live in Pittsburgh, PA - we are supposed to get 3-4 inches of snow tonight and it is going to be cold. Oh well.

The second thing I found out about this class is that they ask you to bring a choker chain that is no more than 2 inches round when pulled tight :shock: ! As I was calling to cancel the class and take myself out (I WILL NOT use a choker on my dog), they gave me the number to the trainer. I called her to ask about the choker and she said they (the community college) misinturpreted her. She only asks that the dog have a collar that they can't escape from and run wild. She will not train using the choker and said she does not use them herself.

Anyway, just thought I would share that with everyone. It shows that you should look into a trainers methods before starting the class. I bet many people that want to use a choker will show up very disappointed!

[Colleen]

Whoh, scary. I would think it was pretty odd too...good for your for calling to find out! I'm glad to hear that she wasn't really going to teach that way!

BTW - My dog is named Dexter! :)

[Luciann]

i have only used a choker chain on one dog and only cause she liked it to jingle. it was her status symbol, we lived in the country and the only dog we had that had a collar and she like that is was shinny and jingled.

i would not use them for trainning or any other reason than the one i have listed above.

good luck on the class

[Stefie C]

It's great you found a trainer that doesn't use a choker. Every class I've looked into in my area uses a choker. My son & I are doing pretty well teaching Sandy some commands but she REALLY need the socialization of a class. I've talked to two trainers and they both say they only use postive methods but then say you must have a choke chain to get into the class. I trained one dog with a choke chain. It was many years ago and it was the best I knew to do at the time. The trainer was a sweet lady and I'm sure it was the best she knew too but it was a disaster for my poor dog. She was a very dominate black lab. She was also very smart. On the choker, she was at the top of the class. She'd do anything you wanted. But off the chain was another matter. She wouldn't do anything you asked so the trainer taught me to do alpha rolls. Big mistake!!! I think all that did was make her mad and a little bit mean. Anyway, that's my experience choke chains. I won't use one ever again. Good Luck with your class. I hope it is a postive experience for you and your dog.

[Anonymous]

Well, Class starts today and it is currently 19 degrees F outside. Our class is in the parking lot of the community college, so it is going to be bitter. BRRRRR

[Justine Archuleta]

Choker chains aren't as bad as people say they are. You don't literally choke your dogs. I use it because Blackie is very aggresive and doesn't like to listen to me, I only really use it when he tries to get away from me. Plus he can get out of any collar.

[Clair Taberner]

it's like any training tool, if used correctly it can work, but unfortunately most people use it as the name suggests it should work and jerk their dog all over the place which doesn't teach anything other than fear and pain and damages the neck.

[Eric Vecc]

OK - A few questions for you...

During the class, the trainer used "leash correction". For example, if she was teaching heel and the dog was walking next her, when she turned and the dog did not turn with her, she would snap the leash to show the dog that he should follow her. She did not have a choker on him but a regular collar. Is this not a safe method of correction???? She uses strong +R with treats and praise. She has 3 very well trained Aussies that are shown for agility.

The other issue I have is when my dog got near her Aussie that was on a leash, she snapped at my dog. Bailey was just going in for a sniff. I thought Aussies were very friendly dogs, especially ones that are the trainers'.

I do not want a chain choker but I am looking for a good collar to assist in the training of Bailey. Any suggestions?

[Justine Archuleta]

You do not have to use a choke chain, I was just saying that if used correctly it does provide results. As for the girl who uses the collar, that is just her preference. The choke chain does not actually choke them like I said. As for the other question, any dog can snap. Just because it was an aussie does not mean it was nice. My dog has his bad days, but most of the time he has his good days. They are just like us sometimes and need to be left alone.

[Jill Ramsey]

Eric,
I believe the dog that snapped at Bailey was using that "puppy license" thing. Up to a certain age, they allow sniffing, etc. after that, they tell the puppy, 'back off'. At our training club, they tell everyone from little puppies to dogs, "Be aware of your dog, don't let them go up to another dog and sniff". Even well trained dogs don't always like to be approached by a strange dog or puppy.

[Eric Vecc]

Well it was a very frustrating situation because my dog LOVES to play with other dogs. The setting of this class was in a parking lot and the trainer is a soft spoken lady. All of the dogs were barking so we were all trying to close our circle in to hear her. Well the closer we got to each other, the closer our dogs got and the more wound up they were acting. Bailey has been snapped at before and actually had his ear bitten into by a relatives elderly lab. He was only 3 months old when it happened. Bailey will hesistate when growled at but still will go in for the sniff. I hate to wait for him to learn his lesson but I can't protect him ALL the time. It only takes a split second for a dog to snap at him and who is to know what dogs are nice and what dogs are not. In this particular setting all of the dogs are in a close setting and it is bound to happen.

Also, any suggestions on the Martingale collar? Do they work well for training? I know some users on this site use them and have said they work. I just wanted to hear both sides.

[Jill Ramsey]

I know, it's frustrating when you can't hear what the instructor is saying. Our dog club moved to a new location-the other building was sold- and this one is like a warehouse. It has heaters attached to ceiling. So when the heaters go off, you can't hear anything, plus a lot of the dogs are spooked by it.

[Maria Juliano]

OK - A few questions for you...

During the class, the trainer used "leash correction". For example, if she was teaching heel and the dog was walking next her, when she turned and the dog did not turn with her, she would snap the leash to show the dog that he should follow her. She did not have a choker on him but a regular collar. Is this not a safe method of correction???? She uses strong +R with treats and praise. She has 3 very well trained Aussies that are shown for agility.

The other issue I have is when my dog got near her Aussie that was on a leash, she snapped at my dog. Bailey was just going in for a sniff. I thought Aussies were very friendly dogs, especially ones that are the trainers'.

I do not want a chain choker but I am looking for a good collar to assist in the training of Bailey. Any suggestions?

Eric,

In case you didn't know, Renee Premaza, an advisor from DD just joined us. :D She is willing to answer questions on any related issues about defensive dogs, training. Click on the members list to see her posts.

Maria Juliano

[Renee]

Eric-

Even though this trainer is using a lot of +R, she is doing an old fashion and aversive technique called a "leash pop". What are this trainer's qualifications and certifications. Is she a Certified Pet Dog Trainer (CPDT)? What is her education - formal or informal? "Leash popping" is should be a red flag to you.... If dogs are receiveing leash pops in a stressful enviornment like group class they could easily associate the correction with the handler or other dogs - some dogs even develop leash aggression.

As far as another dog snapping at your dog, you should not allow your dog to approach another dog while on leash - especially in a group class. Did the trainer point this out to you? A class situation can be very stressful for many dogs. Good trainers and behaviorists will not allow dogs to greet on leash during group class - this is how leash aggression starts.

As far as collars are concerned - obviously a choke chain is indeed a tool, but a bad tool at best. There has been a study done on choke chains - they DO cause damage dogs neck, head, spine and trachea. Not necessarily because people use them with harsh corrections (which some do). It's a combination of things - people use them for corrections (maybe harshly and maybe not) and many dogs will pull through them when excited or when on walks. Over the lifespan of a dog this all adds up and damage is being done.

Any type of collar is a tool, but it will not teach your dog to heel or walk nicely on a leash. Some tools are more humane and cause less damage than others. Less humane tools often cause behaviorial problems in dogs - even with people who think they are using the less humane tool "correctly". Training collars are only an AID to help your dog not pull on lead. You need to teach that (like the "Be a Tree" method, or "watch", click and treat method.) Many certified behaviorists and Certified Pet Dog Trainers will recommend a gente leader, halti, or a sensation harness (I personally like the sensation harness). These are great tools that can help with the pulling for now. Once you teach your dog to walk nicely on lead, you can transition back to a leash and a flat buckle collar.


Justine-

I would avoid using a choke chain on your dog - especially if he has an aggression problem. It will only make the situation worse. Choke chains can cause fear and pain in dogs. If your dog is acting aggressively and your have to "control" him with a choke chain - you are aiding and fueling the aggression problem.

[Eric Vecc]

[quote="Renee B"]Eric-

"Many certified behaviorists and Certified Pet Dog Trainers will recommend a gente leader, halti, or a sensation harness (I personally like the sensation harness). These are great tools that can help with the pulling for now. "

Renee, we are currently using the Halti (the harness that goes around his shoulders). When on a regular collar, he pulls and starts weezing and coughing but doesn't stop. That is why we went to the harness. We are working on him with click-treat but he is not catching on. I am contstantly holding him back and trying to keep him by my side. This is never a loose leash. I will reiterate my stance and NOT use a choker on him and even read up on the Martingale and am against it. The problem is we paid for this darn class. When I called to investigate her, she said she does not use chokers and that was all. Turns out she does use the popping and I did not like the looks of it. Some people in the class did have chokers on and were snapping the dog so hard it was lifting them off the ground. It looked horrible. We are going to stay in the class but with some hesitation on the training methods. If anything, it will get us, and Bailey, outside and allow him to see different sizes and breeds of dogs. I assume she will teach us commands (besides heel) using positive rein. That is why I will stay in it.

Just a story to follow: there was one gentleman (or I should say man - because he was not gentle) that had a mid sized dog on a plain metal choker. The dog was sitting while all of the other dogs where trying to move around so I watched him. Everytime the dog went up onto 4 paws, he snapped that collar and the dog sat. He snapped it hard and fast too. It was so disheartining to watch this happen to the poor dog. I was very angry and was about to say something to him but my wife talked me out of it. It jsut makes me sick to see that first hand and think of the life that dog has at home.

[Summer Magic]

Let me add too that choke chains do just that, they choke. The GL or halti are so much more humaine to use on the dogs. Magic has a halti and we haven't had more than two episodes of her pulling (those were in the first two times we used it) She is learning to walk on a relaxed leash now, but I do change the tension on the leash periodically just in case I see a possible situation ahead so she won't feel the change in tension and anticipate that there is something wrong. That way I always have control and she is very willing to trust me to keep her safe. She does have many other issues but this is not one of them.

[Renee]

Eric-

If you decide to stay in the class, that is your decision. Just remember, don't let any student or the trainer make you use a technique that you don't agree with. Stand your ground. If you have any questions about techniques that are being used in this class, please post them in here...

While you don't agree with some of the methods in this class, I think it will be very educational for you to see people using aversive techniques. While it might make you angry (it makes me angry), you will see why we use positive reinforcement techniques. I know that at some point, you might want to yell at the people who are "hurting" their dogs. Try not to. Don't tell them what they are doing wrong, tell them what they are doing right (hopefully they are doing something right). Lead by example - use +R and just let everyone see how your dog responds. You will win more people over this way.

Many people don't understand the rules and consequences of punishment. Let alone, the typical pet owner using a punishment method with poor timing (which is abuse, not punishment). Even well-timed punishment has its fallout. Dogs are excellent discriminators - they associate the punishment with environmental factors - people or dogs who are approaching the dog at the time of the punishment, the punisher, the location of the punishment. Dogs don't necessarily associate the well-timed punishment with the undesired behavior. If a dog is made to feel unsafe because it doesn't understand the punishment, that is were we start to see a lot of fear and aggression.

What is the fallout for badly- timed postive reinforcement? Your dog doesn't make the correct associations or your dog only offers behaviors if you have food. (I think that there are worse things in life- see the above paragraph). Many people argue that +R only creates dogs who work for food. My reply is - that if your dog only works for food, then you don't understand how to use and apply +R. People need to learn to fade the lure, use other types of reinforcement and put the reinforcement on a variable schedule. Many people simply make the mistake of handing out treats like they are a vending machine. They really need to hand it out like a slot machine - thats why people keep gambling in Vegas. It also why well trained +R dogs don't ONLY offer behaviors for treats - they offer behaviors when asked, with or without treats.

As far as choke collars were concerned, I was just throwing that info out there for the other people on the forum (it seems like you definitely know whats going on when it comes to that kind of stuff!)

Also, a Halti is a head harness much like the gentle leader. So I'm not sure what kind of harness you are using on your dog. If it helps with the pulling and you think it is humane, then go with it. Else I'm a big fan of the sensation harness, but I do use a gentle leader once in a while.

Any dog can catch on to click and treat. Did you "charge" the clicker? Are you training with too many distractions? Dogs cannot be expected to heel by your side the whole time they are on a walk, but they can be expected to walk on a loose leash (if you teach it). You might be expecting too much out of your dog too soon...

Good luck to you Eric

[Justine Archuleta]

Renee,
I asked my qualified trainer of 20 years about the choke chain and she said if she had my dog she would have used a choke chain. I'm not trying to sound mean but I will NOT pull my dog as so hard that it hurts him. A little pull is all I do okay!!!!!!

[Renee]

Justine-

What do you mean when you say your trainer is "qualified"? How are you measuring the term "qualified"? While 20 years in the dog business is great, it necessarily mean a trainer is good or bad. It doesn't necessarily mean that they are educated or uneducated. I actually know of a few dog trainers that have been in the business for 15-30 years - and I wouldn't trust them with a stuffed animal. They have been using the same uneducated methods for the last 30 years and don't want to change. So I tend to look for more in a trainer/behaviorist than just time spent in the profession. Do you know if your trainer has any other credentials?

Anyone can call themselves a dog trainer or behaviorist. Thats why a few agencies (like ADPT, ABC and IAABC) has decided to set certain professional, ethical, and educational standards for those who wish to work in the world of dogs. People can now become Certified Pet Dog Trainers, Certified Applied Animal Behaviorists and Certified Animal Behavior Consultants. Many of these certifications require a significant level of education (Ph.D's, Masters, specialized educational programs) and supervised hands-on clinical hours. Continuing education credits are also required to keep the certifications current. So these are somethings that I would look for (in addition to amount of time in profession) when choosing a trainer. Consumers spend large amounts of money on dog training and behavioral services (around Madison, WI group lessons are usually $90/6 sessions,private lessons are $40+/hour and a behaviorial consult will run you $75-85/hr) - so, make sure you know what your are paying for. Afterall, your dog's well-being is at stake.

If a trainer told me to put a choke chain on a dog who has any kind of aggression problems, I would fire them on the spot. This is a huge red flag because they are demonstrating to me that they don't have a basic understanding of the situation. There are better, more humane training collars available that will allow a person to safely control an aggressive dog and won't add to the aggression problem. Management (not putting the dog in situations that it cannot handle and ensuring that other people, pets and the aggressive dog won't get injured), counterconditioning, and desentization are additional tools that can be utilized when working with an aggressive dog (management being the most important for safety reasons).

By the way Justine, you are not sounding mean (in your post)....you are being very honest - and I appreciate that.

[Grace Erick]

With Chihuahuas, you shouldn't even use a regular collar, never mind a choker. A regular collar can collapse their trachea.

[Justine Archuleta]

Well by qualified I mean she has went to school and owns her own business training dogs, bording, sheltering, and grooming. Everybody trusts her with their animals. She boards all kinds of animals and gives expert advice! I did not mean to make my dog sound that aggresive. He sometimes growls, barks, and snaps. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Eric Vecc]

Justine, please don't think people are trying to put you down for your choices. They are exactly that, your choices. This is an educational forum and we are asking advice from people that are more 'qualified' than you or I. I define the word qualified in THIS text to be people that have first hand experience with certain things. This is a very heated subject because there are many people that still believe choker training is the best method of training. But there are also many vets out there that have seen dogs die on the table because of injured necks from it. Fortunately, it's your right to train your dog how you feel comfortable. Let me restate, that this is only an educational forum and provides the knowledge to make better choices in the training, treating, feeding, health and behavior of your dog. It is then your choice to listen or not. Please don't feel belittled because of your questions or choices.

[Renee]

Justine - Your opinions are most certainly welcome and appreciated! Different perspectives and backgrounds are what makes this forum interesting and educational.

If your dog is air snapping and growling, please take this seriously. There is no such thing as "not that aggressive". You might want to consider posting in the Defensive Dog's forum. Brenda Aloff's book Aggression in Dogs is also an excellent resource.

[Eric Vecc]

Renee, I am interested in the Sensation harness but have been unable to find one on the internet. Are they called "sensation harness" or some variation of that. Why do they help with pulling? I know there is no store bought cure but an aid to my training would be nice.

The type of harness we use now is called the Holt No Tug harness. I have attached the picture from the PetSmart website. Bailey still pulls with this harness, it just doesn't hurt his throat when he does.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/evecchiola/Harness.jpg

[Marsha]

The website is www.softouchconcepts .com (It could be softtouch, with 2 t's). Anyway, I have ordered the sensible harness from the same company that has the sensation harness, and this is website for that company. The only difference in the 2 harnesses, I think, is the material they're made of and the fact that the sensation harness had a backorder, and they could send me the sensible harness right away. It has worked very well with my puller. The way it is different from what you showed on your picture is that they leash attaches to a ring in front of the dog under his neck, so when he runs ahead he is getting a pull from the front of his body. It is also VERY easy to put on which was almost as important as the no-pull, since we had tried harnesses that were like puzzles to get him into, and he's quite active!!

[Renee]

Eric-

Many behaviorists and dog trainers generally use a gentle leader, halti or sensation harness. Many are starting to choose the sensation harness over the gentle leader. Some dogs are not able to wear a gentle leader because of prior head, spine and neck injuries. Other dogs can not adapt to the GL - even with desentization techniques (many GSD have this problem). The sensation harness is also a better tool to use if you have a dog lunges on lead (leash aggression/frustration).

The sensation harness is different from traditional harnesses because the d-ring (where you attach the leash) is located in the front by the dog's chest. Many traditional harnesses that attach from the back of the dog can actually encourage pulling (because muscles work in opposition).

It is much easier to desentize a dog to a harness than a gentle leader. It sounds like your dog is already used to wearing a harness, so you should have no problems there. Just make sure that you measure your dog accroding to the website and order the proper size - if you decide to go with this harness.

The website as stated above is www.softouchconcepts .com

Good Luck

[TimberWolf]

Renee-

So true about the GSD not going for the gentle leader even with the proper introduction. My shepherd mix, Sparky, couldn't stand it. In fact she even tried to bite my husband (her daddy) when he was tryign to calm her down. She does not like her head pulled in any other direction than where she wants it.

I just wanted to know, what is the difference between the SENSE-ation harness and the SENS-ible harness? It seems the sensible harness is cheaper but looks the same. At the link provided before your post it has a description for both harnesses; however, it describes the sensation harness better but only describes the sensible harness as having a lower cost to it because the buckle is not metal.

[Marsha]

I got the Sens-ible harness. If you call to place your order, they will talk to you about the differences. I'm pretty sure that the only difference was the material/hardware it was made with. Also, when I ordered, the Sens-ation harness was on backorder and would take about 3 weeks, and I could order the Sens-ible harness and get it in about 4 days.

[Renee]

Anne-

I don't know what it is, but many people that I know could not do the gentle leader with their GSD - even with the help of a professional. I know that Dr. Patricia McConnell has started using sensation harnesses in her consulting and dog training practice in addition to gentle leaders. Trish King (she a well respected certified behavior consultant and the head of the Marin Co Humane Society) is a big proponent of the sensation harness also.

I don't have any experience with the sensible harness. Unfortunately, I think that sensible harness is ripping off the sensation harness - and I'm sure others will follow. I think that premier (makers of the GL) are making something call the easy-walk harness which might just be another rip off. So I'll spend my money on the sensation harness and support an original idea - but that's just me.

[Marsha]

Actually, the Sens-ation and Sens-ible harness are both sold on the Softtouch Concepts website, so I assumed they were made by the same company. The woman in Customer Service took my order at Softtouch Concepts answered questions about both, and the website makes it sound as if the products are by the same company.

[TimberWolf]

Sounds like there may not be much of a difference but the sensation harness might actually be better made. Not that my dogs are the strongest and could break the harness, but I'm a little iffy about plastic loops and buckles. I'd like it to last. I think I'll go ahead an order the sensation harness since it's made with better parts. It's also not that expensive that if I don't like it, I won't go broke because of it. :)

[Renee]

Marsha-

I checked out the website and saw the sensible harness - it seems that I stand corrected. I hadn't been on the website in a while so it looks like they made a second product. I do know that people are starting to rip the sensation harness off (I think I heard that from Trish King??? - though I can't remember now...). I saw that Premier made a rip-off product called the easy walk harness. I guess if people are lucky enough to have an original idea, everyone will try to rip it off and make a profit on it....

[TimberWolf]

I just called Soft Touch concepts because Sparky's measurements falls in the middle of the SENSE-ation harness' measurement chart. The person said that the sensible harness is actually an upgrade and not a copy of the sensation harness. They are made from the same manufacturer but with a more flexible measurement chart and a more streamline strap. There are fewer parts needed for the streamline effect which is why it's less expensive....less labor.

However, I wanted the purple so I ordered the sensation harness for Skye and the red sensible harness for Sparky. I'm getting tired of always getting black for them.

[TimberWolf]

I got the sensation harness for Skye and the sensible harness for Sparky. The sensation harness actually has a strong plastic hardware and buckle, where as the sensible harness has metal hardware and a hard plastic buckle. Either look like they could do the same job. It's mainly the sizing chart that makes the difference and the color options.

:dogrun:
Sparky's first walk went very well. She took to the harness without any fuss and walked next to me like a pro! She obviously liked that much better than the choker I was using. Skye took a little more time getting used to it. I don't think she likes the feeling of being confined and is not used to a harness. But once we went for a walk she seemed a lot more comfortable with it on.

One thing I definately see a difference with these harnesses on is the the leashes don't get caught in the chains, and I don't have to keep loosening up the chokers anymore. I don't have to pull hard at all to get Sparky to follow me when she's distracted also. I dont' think this is a miracle harness or anything. It certainly isn't going to change Sparky's behavior towards other dogs and children but I do feel that I have more control over where she goes.

Thank you so much for the suggestion of these harnesses. They are great! :tup:

[Eric Vecc]

I am interested in getting the Sensation harness but am still trying to work it out with what we have. The problem I see with Bailey, is chewing on the harness. He has a regular harness that attaches to the leash behind his neck - so he cannot get to it and bite it. I have tried to turn it around on him (so the leash attaches to the front, but he just bites at as we walk. Do you think this would be a problem with the sensation???

[TimberWolf]

Well it's not easy to get at but there are some escape artists out there. if bailey wants it off so bad try maybe slowly getting him used to it on. put it on and give him a treat. if he tries to chew on it give him something else to do like a bunch of commands. sit, down, heal, etc... and giv ehim a treat when he seems to not be paying as much attention to the harness. Also don't put it on him for too long at first but little by little leave it on him under supervision. It's also something you don't need to keep on him all the time. You coudl just use it for walks, but you still need to get him used to the idea of having it on first. You just need to make sure he sees it as a good thing.