+R/-P questions

[Chris Smith]

Is this the preferred method for working with dogs since it has the least amount of fall out or behavioral and emotional problems later on for the dog and the dog/owner relationship?

Do studies show that using any amount or any form of punishment will result in behavioral problems for a dog? (ie. spray bottles, leash pops, yelling) And are the problems fear and aggression?

When you are doing +R/-P and it is not working (the dog is not doing the desired behavior), is the only response to ignore the dog?

If the dog never has a "consequence" for ignoring the owner or not doing what it has been taught, how does he "get it" that the response he is doing is not right?

Here's an example of one thing I am dealing with: Nalu has his own bed that is always available to him. When I am home and not actively engaged with him, he will continually go to his bed and chew on it (make holes and rip it up - not just mouth it). I have REPEATEDLY taken away his bed when he does this. No words; no emotion. Just removal of the bed. We have done this routine many, many times and he is just not getting it. He still does the same behavior. Of course the removal stops the chewing, but he never seems to learn not to eat his bed. When I am not home, he has his bed and he never chews on it.

In +R/-P, is my only choice to ignore him (let him chew up the bed) or removal of it? And when that's not working (this has been going on for months), do I have any other options if I still want to use +R/-P?

I used the bed as an example, but I think the principles could be applied to many different training situations.

Thanks for any help in understanding this better and learning how to apply it effectively.

Chris

[Suni Brown]

Excellent questions Chris. I have been reading all kinds of stuff and hearing the same things, but I have the same issues. I am so freaked out about making my dog have problems later in life, that I am having a lot of trouble controling her now. I will admit, I have pooped my dog before when she has gotten crazy. Not hard, just enough to get her attention. Right now, she knows "sit" and she knows it well, but a lot lately, she just stares and completely ignores me when I tell her so sit. I just don't know what to do.....Thanks for asking these questions, I think a bunch of us want to know...

[Mario Niepel]

Is this the preferred method for working with dogs since it has the least amount of fall out or behavioral and emotional problems later on for the dog and the dog/owner relationship?

Do studies show that using any amount or any form of punishment will result in behavioral problems for a dog? (ie. spray bottles, leash pops, yelling) And are the problems fear and aggression?

When you are doing +R/-P and it is not working (the dog is not doing the desired behavior), is the only response to ignore the dog?

If the dog never has a "consequence" for ignoring the owner or not doing what it has been taught, how does he "get it" that the response he is doing is not right?

Here's an example of one thing I am dealing with: Nalu has his own bed that is always available to him. When I am home and not actively engaged with him, he will continually go to his bed and chew on it (make holes and rip it up - not just mouth it). I have REPEATEDLY taken away his bed when he does this. No words; no emotion. Just removal of the bed. We have done this routine many, many times and he is just not getting it. He still does the same behavior. Of course the removal stops the chewing, but he never seems to learn not to eat his bed. When I am not home, he has his bed and he never chews on it.

In +R/-P, is my only choice to ignore him (let him chew up the bed) or removal of it? And when that's not working (this has been going on for months), do I have any other options if I still want to use +R/-P?

I used the bed as an example, but I think the principles could be applied to many different training situations.

Thanks for any help in understanding this better and learning how to apply it effectively.

Chris

Chris, at the moment I am not able to give you a really long and in-depth answer, but there are other things to do than just ignoring. The most powerful is to teach an alternate behavior. Your pup seems to be bored and looks for something to entertain itself. So, make sure your pup has an outlet for these tendencies. For example, teach Nalu to chew on a couple of old tightly knotted rags that have a few treats hidden in them. While you are teaching this behavior, make sure that the bed is not available for Nalu to chew on, because she already has taught herself that this behavior works well (since it is fun and it gets even minimal attention from you).

Also, punishment may not work in this case... mainly because this seems to be a way to get attention from you. Oddly enough, in some dogs the punishment itself is reinforcing, because it does get your attention.

[Mario Niepel]

Excellent questions Chris. I have been reading all kinds of stuff and hearing the same things, but I have the same issues. I am so freaked out about making my dog have problems later in life, that I am having a lot of trouble controling her now. I will admit, I have pooped my dog before when she has gotten crazy. Not hard, just enough to get her attention. Right now, she knows "sit" and she knows it well, but a lot lately, she just stares and completely ignores me when I tell her so sit. I just don't know what to do.....Thanks for asking these questions, I think a bunch of us want to know...

Suni, how are you training self-control with your pup. Also, your pup apparently does not know sit well, otherwise she would sit, instead of staring at you. Just think about it. Your dog at the moment has nothing better to do than either standing and staring or sitting and receiving a reward. Why would your dog chose to do the former instead of the latter unless it didn't know that the latter ends in a reward?

[Renee]

Hi Chris,

We do know that an aversive stimulus can evoke a sympathetic fight-or-flight response such as aggression, fear, or submission, and it can interfere with the lesson intended or with the human-dog relationship (from Canine Behavior - a guide for veterinarians by Bonnie Beaver). Yes, there are studies that back this up.

I gotta run...but I'll post more later on destructive chewing....

[Suni Brown]

Mario-

What do you mean by "teaching self control". I am not sure what they means. As far as I can tell, Gwen knows sit. Unless I have a treat in my hand though, she won't do it 100% of the time. I have told her sit and she ignores me, but if I walk into the kitchen (where her treats are) she runs in, sits, and shakes with out being told. How do I know if she "knows" the command, cause with a treat she does it. We slowely started giving her random treats when sitting (so she got used to NOT getting one every time), and now she seems to be deciding on her own if she will do it. Am I making any sense?

[Mario Niepel]

Suni, that sounds like you switched to variable reinforcement too early. Also, don't let the dog know if you have a treat available or not. One way to achieve this is either to always carry treats with you or to hide treats (in tupperware) throughout your house or apartment. This way your pup will not be able to predict when a treat is forthcoming or not.

By teaching self control I mean that you heavily reward her for being calm (e.g. sitting) in situations where she sometimes goes crazy/out of control. For example when visitors come over, when you come home, when there is another dog in sight, ...

[Suni Brown]

What should I do now than?? Continue with treat for sit?? And I have not done anytrhing about self control. I was actually gonna ask how to handle that. She has gotten used to the people who always some over (she doesn't bite them anymore but she runs and jumps). If a new person comes though, it's crazy dog time.....I am so confused by all of this! It seems so easy for some people but she is so young and I just don't know (wow...I;m getting all kinds of frustrated!)

[Melissa Brunoehler]

Hi Chris~

Rewarding appropriate dog behavior makes that behavior more likely to occur in the future and is one of the most powerful tools you can use to shape or change your dog's actions. +R not only teaches your dog what behaviors you desire (as well as those you don't) in a humane manner, but also because it creates stronger bonds between you and your dog. Think of the great bond you have with Nalu right now.

Training based on physical punishment usually involves some level of discomfort or even pain. Punishment may also be associated with other stimuli, including people,animals present at the time the punishment occurs.

Will Nalu go to his bed on command? If not teach him to do so.
http://www.doggiebagonline. com/articles/article.php?articlei d=22

Learning to go to his bed on command will give him more of a purpose & he will be less likely to chew on it.

Whenever Nalu goes to his bed on his own & acts appropriately praise & treat him! Let him know what a good boy he is on his bed!

Think about when Nalu chews his bed, you pick up his bed & ignore him that is good but do you then start interacting with him? It’s possible that he has learned that the chewing gets your attention.

When you are doing +R/-P and it is not working (the dog is not doing the desired behavior), is the only response to ignore the dog?

No. If the dog is not performing a command you need to figure out why. Does he understand what I’m asking him? Have I added too many distractions at once? Most likely the dog needs more practice with the command.

If the dog is doing something undesirable sometimes ignoring is best. For example,I think it’s best to ignore when you have a dog that nips, I have not seen anything that works as well or as quickly. If you have a dog that jumps up, you, the owner can turn & ignore. But you need to manage your dog from jumping up on other people- keep him leashed & PRACTICE polite greetings.
So it's a combo depending on the undesired behavior of redirecting, ignoring, managing & teaching an appropriate behavior.
.

If the dog never has a "consequence" for ignoring the owner or not doing what it has been taught, how does he "get it" that the response he is doing is not right?

At this point I like to give a “reminder cue”- I use “what are you supposed to be doing?” Use reminder cues sparingly so that the dog does not become dependent on them.
Then reward the correct behavior.

In the case where Nalu did not respond to you calling him when he was off leash that is a matter of needing more practice with the recall. Continue to practice recall with Nalu everywhere. When he comes to you give him awesome treats & immediately release him to go back to whatever he was doing - We don’t want him to think that coming to you when called equals the end of playing. I would take him back, on a long line, to where he didn’t listen to you calling him. Let him sniff around, when he’s distracted, sniffing or looking around, but before the leash is taut call him. When he comes to you praise! Treat! & let him go back to sniffing. Practice.

[Melissa Brunoehler]

Hi Suni~

Please don't think that +R is only about handing out cookies & letting dogs do whatever they want. We don't use aversives but we don't let our dogs run around like little maniacs either. At least not all the time :wink:

Excellent questions Chris. I have been reading all kinds of stuff and hearing the same things, but I have the same issues. I am so freaked out about making my dog have problems later in life, that I am having a lot of trouble controling her now. I will admit, I have pooped my dog before when she has gotten crazy. Not hard, just enough to get her attention. Right now, she knows "sit" and she knows it well, but a lot lately, she just stares and completely ignores me when I tell her so sit. I just don't know what to do.....Thanks for asking these questions, I think a bunch of us want to know...

[Melissa Brunoehler]

Hi Suni~

Do you mean nipping out of excitement or actual biting?
If your dog has bitten please let us know as we will give you different advice.

Based on this post & others I'm going to assume you mean nipping-
When someone comes to the door put Gwen's leash on before you answer the door. Let your guest in & allow them to pet Gwen only if she is acting appropriately. If she jums, nips, etc. they should immediately pull their attention away from gwen. For now keep her on leash while your guest are over. If she is on leash you will be able to reward her when she's good & she will not have the option of running or jumping.
Also practice polite greetings- come in through your front door (like a guest would) even ring the doorbell before you walk in. Have some treats hidden in your pocket. Walk in & ask G to sit. When she does pet & give her a treat. Practice this often. Try to get your friends/family to help you with this so that they are the ones coming in & petting/treating G when she's sitting.


Also continue to practice the advice Renee P gave you in a post in the Puppies forum I have recopied her advice here-

Here's a few hints to use even before you attend classes:

1. Have a variety of treats on you as often as possible. Stuff them in your pockets or use a bait bag that you can buy from Petsmart.

2. Anytime you see Gwen voluntarily sit or lie down, go to her immediately, and give her a treat right there on the spot. If she's in a down position, place that treat on the floor right by her nose. Tell her "good sit" or "good down." And then walk away and watch her again. If she gets up after that, don't fret, because that will give you a whole 'nother training opportunity to reward her again when she sits or lies down. You will notice that whenever you do this, she will offer those calm behaviors much more often. This is the principle behind positive reinforcement. When you reward a behavior, that behavior will tend to increase.

3. If she is a wild "child" and gets crazy, don't punish her or holler at her. Just walk away from her or hide in the bathroom for 15 or 30 seconds. Don't reappear until she's quiet. If you're out on a walk and she gets revved up, just step on her leash giving her only enough room to sit or lie down. When she does, tell her what a good dog she is and then proceed from there. If the wild behavior is on the increase, it's only because someone or something is reinforcing that behavior. One reinforcer could even be your getting upset with her because she's still getting attention, which could be at the root of it all.

4. Make sure you're exercising your puppy enough. Sometimes taking a dog for a walk around the block once or twice a day just isn't going to cut it. You might consider not only the puppy classes, but if you can find a reputable doggy daycare in your area, taking her there once or twice a week can really make a big difference. She gets to play with other dogs all day long, and will come home really tired and happy. I've seen this have a 2 day effect on dogs I've worked with.

So... tonight when she does finally calm down on her own, get those treats stuffed in your pockets and just sit there and watch her behavior. The more you reward her for sitting and lying down, the more she'll do it.



What should I do now than?? Continue with treat for sit?? And I have not done anytrhing about self control. I was actually gonna ask how to handle that. She has gotten used to the people who always some over (she doesn't bite them anymore but she runs and jumps). If a new person comes though, it's crazy dog time.....I am so confused by all of this! It seems so easy for some people but she is so young and I just don't know (wow...I;m getting all kinds of frustrated!)

[Chris Smith]

Thanks for all of the feedback and explanations on +R/-P. I think I have a more clear picture of how to use +R to be effective. I have never punished Nalu and don't want to so I thought ignoring everything was my only choice. Although there are some frustrating times, it's helpful to have a good understanding of how to be use +R to get the desired results so hopefully, with more time and practice (and Nalu getting a little older), we will get there.