schitzophrentic dog

[Kimberly Lyons]

Hi all I think my dog is schitzophrentic, he is very sweet and docile towards everybody but strangers (whom he mistrusts) and sometimes he just snaps. It is only towards children and never adults. He has been around children all his life (he was one last december) and he is nuetered. He has given level two bites twice and threatened several times. If he bites again we will have to have him put down. Is there anything we can do???

[Luciann]

Kim

I have no advice but i want to wish you and he good luck. other than keeping him away from children

[Kimberly Lyons]

We got him a muzzle, he is wearing it for short periods around the house. He looks pitiful. As soon as I get some extra money I am having a thyriod panel done on him to rule that out. If it isnt that then the only thing we can do is muzzle him and keep him away from children.

[Alberta Hanko]

Hi Kimberly - I am not a trainer, but while you are waiting for an answer from someone much more knowledgeable than I am, please check out the articles under the "articles" section. In particulary NILIF, meaning that your dog must do something for everything he receives from you, which should help him to trust that you will handle situations for him. Right now it appears that he is trying to handle them himself. My Linus is very reactive to kids, so I keep his distance, while plying him with superb treats (tuna brownies, small bits of liver, anything soft and really tasty) as he is able to stay calm. There is a whole group of articles for Defensive Dogs, which you will find both interesting and very helpful. How long have you had your dog? What is his name? Has he always been a little fearful and reactive around strangers? In the meantime, you are doing the right thing keeping him away from what stresses him, and the muzzle is a good idea. Have you desensitized him to the muzzle? (Muzzle equals special treats). Thre also should be a great article about that in the articles section. Good luck, you have come to the right place.

Alberta & Linus

[Renee Premaza]

Hi Kimberly!

I would very much like to help you through this, but I need a ton more information from you. Please give us the history of your dog from A to Z. How old is he now? What breed is he? At what age did you get him and from where? When you say he's been around children all of his life, do you mean YOUR children or all sizes and ages of kids, males and females?

What did you mean by: "(he was one last december)?"

Please describe how those bites he inflicted were triggered and to whom. When you say a Level 2 bite, where did you get your information regarding the degrees of bites? How long ago did those bites occur?

Have you done any training with your dog and what methods of training did you use. What type of collar does your dog wear? Does he get taken for walks? What type of leash do you use?

Does he have any other issues besides his negative feelings toward children? Does he guard food, toys, objects or family members, places or spaces?

Hope to hear from you soon. The more detailed you can be, the more we may be able to help.



Hi all I think my dog is schitzophrentic, he is very sweet and docile towards everybody but strangers (whom he mistrusts) and sometimes he just snaps. It is only towards children and never adults. He has been around children all his life (he was one last december) and he is nuetered. He has given level two bites twice and threatened several times. If he bites again we will have to have him put down. Is there anything we can do???

[Missy Stewart]

More info would be great!! Especially about what led up to the bites... while it may have looked like nothing to you, there could have been a lot of things that triggered your dog into biting. Details on this would be great b/c I'll have a better idea of what you are working with.

My JRT Sonny has never done well with children. With a LOT of hard work and patience, he is progressing. But it has taken a lot of time, patience, and dedication on my part!!

I think a lot of times people automatically label a dog as dominant or aggressive if it has a problem with an undesirable behavior, like biting. While in some cases this may be true, I believe that in a lot of them it isn't. Dogs will often stick with what works (and I mean this literally). If growling gets people to stay away.... the dog will continue to use growling b/c it has worked in the past. The dog will also continue to use growling b/c he knows no alternative (or better) behavior.

With Sonny I felt a little lucky b/c he was displaying signs of fear aggression. (i.e. fully raised hackles, ducking down to the ground, running panicked circles around and away from what was scaring him, etc) At one point, Sonny consistently became hysterical around kids with an obnoxious display of the behaviors that I listed above. Before I really knew what was happening (I thought he was just excited or nervous at the time) he bit my 10 year old nephew :shock: Now he did not break the skin... but it still shook me into reality. I had a strong, potential biter on my hands.

Sonny's trainer gave me a lot of good advice to follow after this point, and it has really worked well. I started taking Sonny to parks during slow times to let him watch the kids play (he needed desensitized to their fast movements and loud screams). We would sit as far away as we had to make sure he was comfortable (i.e. not darting his eyes around to follow the kids, emotionally stable enough to follow commands, and capable of concentrating on me). This was about 75 week away the first few times. I would always bring FANTASTIC treats (like turkey dogs) and reward him like crazy for good behaviors. Once he became comfortable from a certain distance, we would move forward and repeat.

Now it has probably taken close to two months of repeating this to get Sonny to the point of a child touching him. Recently we have been able to have kids give him pieces of food, or throw a toy for him. With each visit, I see his confidence going up, and by going through these repetitions, I am teaching him an "alternative" behavior to growling and snapping. It really works out well for both of us if you think about it :wink: He gets yummy treats and time outside, and I get the peace of mind that he is improving with kids.

*Just a note - the first time that I actually let Sonny interact with the kids, his trainer came along with us to the park to monitor the whole thing. His trainer has been completely invaluable in this process. I would have never known what to do without her.

Now I realize that your dog has actually bitten (as in breaking the skin twice now). And you do always have the option of just keeping your dog away from kids. But you also have to realize that by doing this, your dog is never going to get better with them either. If you do want to try something like I demonstrated above (and it really has worked for us) I would suggest seeking out a professional trainer who is well versed in dog aggression/behavior problems. In this case, a Pet Smart-type trainer is not going to be the type of person that you are going to want. You need someone with some serious experience in dealing with cases like this. ESPECIALLY since you are dealing with kids. They are VERY unpredictable, and it is hard to give them directions that they will actually follow when interacting with your dog!

Good luck to you! Again this was just my expereince with my dog. Your dogs case may be completely different... with more details from you, it will help in finding something tailored to your case. Hopefully we will all hear from you soon!
!! :wink:

[Kimberly Lyons]

Hi Kimberly!

I would very much like to help you through this, but I need a ton more information from you. Please give us the history of your dog from A to Z. How old is he now? What breed is he? At what age did you get him and from where? When you say he's been around children all of his life, do you mean YOUR children or all sizes and ages of kids, males and females?

What did you mean by: "(he was one last december)?"

Please describe how those bites he inflicted were triggered and to whom. When you say a Level 2 bite, where did you get your information regarding the degrees of bites? How long ago did those bites occur?

Have you done any training with your dog and what methods of training did you use. What type of collar does your dog wear? Does he get taken for walks? What type of leash do you use?

Does he have any other issues besides his negative feelings toward children? Does he guard food, toys, objects or family members, places or spaces?

Hope to hear from you soon. The more detailed you can be, the more we may be able to help.

Charlie is a Siberian Husky/Cocker spaniel mix. Both parents are purebred so I know exactly what he is. Charlie will be two this December 5th, I got him from my sister (her dogs had him) when he was eight weeks old. He was very smart as a puppy and he is still very smart as a dog. He learns new tricks and things realtivly easily and he has gone through advanced obediance. He is skilled enough to stay for up to a half hour and he does a sit and down on the recall. The only command he does not perform well (its my fault) is come.

He has been around kids from the very beginning my sister has two children ages 7 and ten, which he was a puppy around. Their activitly level is moderatly high. My sisters friend also has two children (all of them are boys) ages 6 and ten, their activity level is extremely high. He has been around very young boys (less than two years old) and he has been around a small 6 year old girl.

The child he bit was named Sebastian, him and his mother visited us last june, Charlie was not yet a year old when he snapped at Seb. Then we didnt think anything of it. Sebastian is a hyperactive child and when Charlie snaped at him Sebastian had stepped on him tail and pulled his fur after being repeatedly told not to. Then my aunt moved down here for a few months and we went to pick her up (she lives in pennselavania.) Charlie LOVES to travel and he goes most everywhere with me so we brought him along. He was in the room I was sleeping in and we were having quiet time, he had his food bowl and a water bowl out. He didnt eat and he had just been out to use the restroom and he had played in the snow. My younger sister was in there on the other side of the room talking to and playing a small quiet game with Seb, she threw a toy across the room and Sebastian got up to go get it, when he was running across the room he tripped over Charlie, and Charlie jumped up and grabbed the back of his head, it took several strong pulls for me to get him off of Seb and I didnt know what else to do but correct him. I severaly reprimanded him. I smacked his butt and yelled at him (he is a sensetive dog to yelling). That was the first time. He broke the skin and left several puncture wounds as well as some shallow cuts on the skull. That was Dec. 27

The second time I wasnt there. I was shopping with my father and Charlie was at home with the rest of the family who was cooking dinner. Charlie had been playing with the children all day and he must have been tired (this was told to me by my older brother who was there.) My older sisters kids and Seb where playing with him and he went and laid under the table. It was almost dinner time and my aunt was getting ready to feed the two youngest children. Austin is 7 and Sebastian is eight, the are both the same hieght and weight. Austin pulled a chair out from under the table and Seb did the same. Charlie came out from under the table and grabbed Sebs lower face this time he left two puncture marks in the cheek a cut below the lip and ending slightly above the chin there was also a small cut on the jaw of the other side of the face. The first time he warned I heard him growl but before I could stop him he had jumped up and grabbed him. The second time he gave no warning he just launched at him. Both time during the attack he sounded vicious.

The first time I believe he was resource gaurding, the second time I dont know. I said a level two bite because he bit once and and except for two spots both times the places where realativly shallow. A level five bite was once described as a multiple bite with deep punctures.

Charlie has extensive training. I mostly used a lure method of training. Other times (like for teaching him paw and touch) I would move the body part into the desired position and reward him. Charlie does get taken for lots and lots of walks. He goes everywhere and meets everybody with me. He is wary around some people and some people he just wants to jump all over them. He loves to meet kids on walks and he loves to lick their hands (usually sticky from ice cream these days).

Charlie is walked on a flat collar. It is a fabric type of collar from Petsmart. It is made by Dog Planet. When Charlie is walked I either use a five foot Dog Planet leash, a four foot latigo leather leash or a three and a half foot braided leather leash.

Other than this he is the perfect companion dog. He is neutered and he is fine around all animals. This last time he started an attack with out warning his was not able to follow through as he was grabbed. As soon as he was grabbed he quit trying to go after the child. I believe the last time he was gaurding a toy as was the first time. The second I dont know and unfortunatly I think it is might fault and I may have unintentionaly created a dog that attacks without warning first. It only seems to be some children though as the kids he gre up with can take his toys and stick their hands in his food bowl with out him getting agitated. Anybody over the age of twelve can do anything with him and he doesnt mind. He is not food aggressive with anyone over twelve either.

[Kimberly Lyons]

Sorry that is so long but I forgot to metion, that Sebastian while not caught hurting Charlie, he was caught on several occasions holding our cats down and poking them with pencils and pens. He also was warned about playing with Charlie after the second time he was bit and he stated "Oh its okay I wont hurt him this time." I dont know if he was hurting him or not but it is something to take into consederation.

[Renee Premaza]

Hi Kimberly,

You said, "he has gone through advanced obediance."

Can you tell us what method of training you have been taught to do? For instance, reward-based training w/ treats, etc., traditional training using leash corrections and negative reinforcement, or training using an electronic collar.

You said, "he does a sit and down on the recall. The only command he does not perform well (its my fault) is come."

I'm hoping your use of the word, "recall" means you've called him to come to you. If you're asking him to sit or lie down when he gets to you after you've called him, that's why he may not be responding well to "come." When you work on recall training (coming when called), don't interrupt his arrival to you with any other instruction. Praise/reward him immediately when he gets to you. If you go into the articles section, under obedience training, one of the articles there contains instructions on teaching a dog to come when called. I think this would be helpful to you.

You said, "Sebastian is a hyperactive child and when Charlie snaped at him Sebastian had stepped on him tail and pulled his fur after being repeatedly told not to."

When you see that any child or adult will not heed your directions as regards your dog, REMOVE THE DOG IMMEDIATELY. You are your dog's guide and leader. He needs to be able to rely on you to keep him from harm's way. Inadvertently, by allowing Sebastian to do his own thing, both the child and the dog were set up to fail.

You said, "My younger sister was in there on the other side of the room talking to and playing a small quiet game with Seb, she threw a toy across the room and Sebastian got up to go get it, when he was running across the room he tripped over Charlie, and Charlie jumped up and grabbed the back of his head, it took several strong pulls for me to get him off of Seb and I didnt know what else to do but correct him. I severaly reprimanded him. I smacked his butt and yelled at him (he is a sensetive dog to yelling). That was the first time. He broke the skin and left several puncture wounds as well as some shallow cuts on the skull."

This sounds really awful! I suspect that Charlie already had an issue where Sebastian was concerned because of the first incident where the child had stepped on his tail and pulled his fur. It sounds like a doggy version of a knee-jerk reaction. However, this doesn't discount the fact that Charlie's reaction was really over the top. Here's where it gets worse... one thing you must understand is that dogs learn by association. Charlie already learned a negative association with the boy. By smacking Charlie and yelling at him in the presence of Sebastian, Charlie most likely would have blamed the child for the punishment he was receiving. A better response could have been to immediately remove Charlie from the room and put him into his crate so that everyone could chill out. With positive punishment (hitting, smacking, yelling), he does not learn what behavior to replace this aggression with. Therefore, he continues to choose biting. I'm certainly not criticizing you - I'm only trying to tell you a better choice to use for aggressive displays. I'm sure you were all horribly upset that night.

You said, "My older sisters kids and Seb where playing with him and he went and laid under the table."

I'm truly amazed that anyone would allow Sebastian and Charlie to be within 1 inch of each other after the incident you described above. I'm glad there was an adult there, but Charlie and Sebastian being together at anytime would have been like striking a match around a gasoline can. So here again, unfortunately, both child and dog were set up to fail.

You said, "Austin pulled a chair out from under the table and Seb did the same. Charlie came out from under the table and grabbed Sebs lower face this time he left two puncture marks in the cheek a cut below the lip and ending slightly above the chin there was also a small cut on the jaw of the other side of the face."

I'm not convinced this was resource guarding. I think that when Charlie saw Sebastian pulling out the chair, Charlie *may* have thought the child was going to hurt him in someway. Are you saying that Charlie jumped up so high that he could get to the child's face to bite him? This was definitely not a level 2 bite. Charlie inflicted multiple bites here. Did anyone ever take Sebastian to a hospital after either of the last 2 biting incidents? Did this last bite require any stitches?

You said, "The first time he warned I heard him growl but before I could stop him he had jumped up and grabbed him. The second time he gave no warning he just launched at him. Both time during the attack he sounded vicious."

Dogs that are "corrected" or punished for growling learn not to growl. Growling is the ONLY way a dog can warn us or another dog that "hey I'm very uncomfortable about what you're doing. please stop or I might choose to bite!" We should really thank a dog when he warns us with a growl. In response to what Missy Stewart said, "... the dog will continue to use growling b/c it has worked in the past. The dog will also continue to use growling b/c he knows no alternative (or better) behavior." Growling is a good behavior when the dog is using it to give a warning. If a dog is feeling uncomfortable with a child's behavior, a dog that chooses to growl is communicating important information to that child (and hopefully the adult who is present). A good behavior to teach a dog would be to "go in your crate when you're tired of dealing with the children." As important would be to teach the children how to appropriately interact with the dog. I would hope that anyone reading this post who has children would go to this website for excellent safety and training information for kids and dogs when they're together: www.doggonesafe.com

You have a situation here that is extremely unfortunate, but very dangerous. Charlie has learned to deliver very serious bites to a child. This is powerful information for this dog to have learned. How do you know that there might not be another child someday who provokes Charlie the way Sebastian did? Charlie does not deliver inhibited bites. As a matter of fact, each bite he delivered got worse than the last. Suppose you went for a walk someday and a child approached Charlie that resembled Sebastian in some small way? This child might not look exactly like Sebastian, but he might have a particular feature similar to Seb's that Charlie could pick up on. There's no guarantee that Charlie wouldn't decide to hurl himself up to that child's face and deliver another Level 5 bite. Children under the age of 15 cannot be trusted to always follow through on our instructions. Kids love to test us and push our buttons. I can remember once when my husband's granddaughter tried very hard to make my dog bite her in order to get everyone's attention on her!

IMO you need the best professional assistance you can find. You need to contact a professional behaviorist who has lots of experience working with aggressive dogs. I would suggest that you click on this link to find a behaviorist in your area: www.iadbc.net Also, if you have a University in your area that has a Veterinary College Behavior Clinic, you could contact them. This isn't a situation that can be resolved on the internet. Aggression is a complex problem. Someone needs to meet you and Charlie and this person needs to assess Charlie's temperament and see how he behaves under certain circumstances.

In the meantime, I would recommend:

1. Do not allow Charlie to be in close proximity of any children until you've met with a professional. When it comes to kids, dogs do not win many lawsuits!

2. Implement a very strict program of Nothing in Life is Free. Please read the article that is posted on this website.

3. You need to keep Charlie's stress levels down by preventing him from feeling anxious, nervous, frustrated and/or angry.

4. As regards resource guarding, there is an article here called, A SOLUTION TO FOOD AND OBJECT GUARDING. You should read that, and begin implementing the protocols recommended in that article if you feel safe doing them. There's also a book you could purchase at www.dogwise.com called, "MINE" by Jean Donaldson.

5. When taking walks in public, I would put Charlie on a Gentle Leader head collar so that you can maintain control of him at all times in case he became reactive toward a stranger or a child. You can go to the following website to purchase and get info about the gentle leader:

www.bargraph.com/gentleleader.html

This isn't a collar you can just plunk on the dog. He needs to be desensitized to it over a week's time. Here is more information about that:

http://www.doglogic.com/halter.htm

6. You know some of what triggers Charlie's aggression. Prevent those triggers from EVER happening again. Everytime Charlie gets to snap or bite, he's learning that this behavior works for him (as Missy also pointed out to you). It will become a firmly entrenched behavioral habit with each occurrence. Manage your dog's environment in order to keep him and everyone else safe.

I sincerely hope you are able to find a good professional who can work with you and your dog. Please keep us updated on how things are going. If you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask. Good luck!

[Kimberly Lyons]

What I meant by advanced obediance is he knows more than the average sit, down, stay and come. He can pass the advanced obdeiance at Petsmart and has a fairly extensive list of abilitys, if you want to know every trick that he knows I can write up a list.

To train Charlie I used a reward based method of training. Not clicker training but lureing or placing him into the desired positions. With some things I was trying to teach him if he didnt want to (i.e. Take it, where he would pick something up in his mouth) I just didnt teach it because he didnt want to do it I went on to a diffrent trick.

For the down on recall and just the recall I only do a down in a training area, like where I normally train. He wont come if he is outside to come in he just ignores me, usually I just go and get him. He doesnt run from me though unless he has escaped. Not just being let out. When he comes straight to me he sits in front of me and is praised.

[Kimberly Lyons]

Hi again. I am keeping Charlie muzzled around children, I realized the other day that if I didnt put it on him the only one whos life I was endangering was his. If he did bite a child, then it was only his life on the line. It was a bit of a revelation, to say the least. Im working on re-training him using a clicker and positive reinforcement. I did shape an impromptu behavior this fathers day where I got him to carry the card to my dad. I did cheat by putting a little bit of soft cheese on the edge but, he went right to "dad" when I told him to!

[Renee Premaza]

>>I did shape an impromptu behavior this fathers day where I got him to carry the card to my dad. I did cheat by putting a little bit of soft cheese on the edge but, he went right to "dad" when I told him to!<<

That is VERY COOL!!!!!!!!!!!!


Hi again. I am keeping Charlie muzzled around children, I realized the other day that if I didnt put it on him the only one whos life I was endangering was his. If he did bite a child, then it was only his life on the line. It was a bit of a revelation, to say the least. Im working on re-training him using a clicker and positive reinforcement. I did shape an impromptu behavior this fathers day where I got him to carry the card to my dad. I did cheat by putting a little bit of soft cheese on the edge but, he went right to "dad" when I told him to!

[Kimberly Lyons]

Thanks, I was really proud too, because he is usually relunctant to pick things up in his mouth unless he's playing with it. But he did great carrying the card. I also took him to the Petsmart and let kids put food through the muzzles basket. He loved it. There werent enough kids there and I didnt want to take him to a park but he had fun just walking around while I shopped for some toys and treats.

[Grace Erick]

Hi Kimberly,

I don't want to sound harsh, but dogs are not machines and they are not people that easily understand what they are told to do, and even at that some people don't do what they are supposed to. He doesn't come to you when you call him, big deal!

Are you sure that he has never been left alone with children that may have given him a quick kick or punch to the head when you weren't looking? I can't imagine euthanizing a dog because he doesn't like kids. If you yourself do not have kids, then I don't see the problem. Not every dog has to love children unless you have kids, and then you can put them up for adoption and not euthanize them. Euthanizing your dog sounds a little extreme for your situation. A rescue will just note that the dog should not be adopted to a family with children.

It seems something is missing in this equation. Actually, before I posted I just reread your info, who the heck is Charlie? I would never leave this Charlie alone with the cats or the dog. I think you have answered your own questions. Little kids can really abuse the heck out of animals, and sometimes it's a sign that they themselves are being abused. Keep your dog and cats, and drop Charlie! You never did say who Charlie is. I sure hope he is not your kid! I don't think any small child should be left unattended with any pet until they are old enough to understand how to respect them.

Bye, Grace

[Kendall Aliza]

The dogs name is Charlie and Seb is the bad kid.
I got a little confused myself, Grace. :)

[Grace Erick]

Kendall, I reread the post and I see where I went wrong, lol:)

I can almost guarantee Seb is abusing the dog when Kimberly is not looking. I hate to see the dog put to sleep for the child's problem, but anyway, like I said, rescues will adopt dogs out that don't like kids with no problem. They just make sure the dogs go to houses without children.

Bye, Grace

[Renee Premaza]

Hello Grace!

>>like I said, rescues will adopt dogs out that don't like kids with no problem. They just make sure the dogs go to houses without children.<<

I have never heard of a rescue organization that would accept a dog that has bitten anyone, especially a child. Charlie has bitten and they were not inhibited bites. There is an issue of responsibility here as to re-homing a dog with Charlie's issues. He would be unsafe for any family with kids, and because he has practiced biting, Kimberly would be passing off Charlie's problems onto someone else who would probably not be able to safely handle this situation. If someone wanted to adopt Charlie, it would have to be a trainer looking for a "project dog." Many trainers wind up adopting or rescuing dogs with serious issues. I did this myself and rehabilitated a very aggressive food/object guarding, fear aggressive Border Collie. Had I not been successful at rehabbing "Jack", I would have had no choice but to euthanize him. I am always for the "underdog," but not when it comes to risking the safety of anyone, human adults, children or other dogs.

If a rescue adopted a dog out that didn't like kids, they would have to be very careful that the new owner still worked things out with that dog, either through behavioral modification training or strict management. If a dog doesn't like kids and behaves aggressively toward them, any adopter is going to face possible liability if that dog even scratches a child.

Sometimes we have to make very tough and unhappy choices about things concerning our dogs.

Kendall, I reread the post and I see where I went wrong, lol:)

I can almost guarantee Seb is abusing the dog when Kimberly is not looking. I hate to see the dog put to sleep for the child's problem, but anyway, like I said, rescues will adopt dogs out that don't like kids with no problem. They just make sure the dogs go to houses without children.

Bye, Grace

[Grace Erick]

Hi Renee,

The chi rescue that I check out frequently on the internet adopts dogs out that don't like kids all the time. They just adopt them out to childless families.

As far as some of them not liking males, they will foster them out to families with males where the dogs do get used to males in the home and warm up to them since they discover over time, they are male, but they are different from the male that may have abused them. So in foster care, a dog may improve, but they don't seek out behaviorist to fix these types of problems.

Chis are dogs that get used to one person sometimes and it's hard for them to transfer their feelings to a new person, so they can be aggressive. These dogs are still put in foster care and are adopted out this way with the description of the dog being that the dog may take time to get used to you. It's a chi thing.

Chis don't transfer their feelings over to new people so easily as with some other breeds. Even if a foster family gets a dog to be nicer, they can revert when they are adopted to square one since they have to start over as far as they are concerned with warming up to someone new. Again, it's a chi thing. Can a behaviorist make a chi accept every new person they meet after so many years of being unsocial, I don't know. The rescues are just happy if the adopting family is accepted by the chi; they don't even get into them liking everyone person they meet before they adopt them out. I think this anti-social behavior in chis is just an accepted thing in chi rescues. I think the dogs tend to get used to new homes and people when they get there and not before.

Dogs with housebreaking problems are adopted out too. Their descriptions say whatever problem the dog has, like "working on housebreaking", so the people know what they are in for when the adopt the dog including that they don't like males or children.

This all may not sound right to you, but it's what I'm used to with chi rescues. I don't know that all dog problems HAVE to be solved. A dog does not have to learn to like men or children, do they?

Also, the aggressive behavior does not mean the dog will attack someone. They just aren't easily approachable and fosters and perspective adopting parents seem to realize this and know the dog will take time to like them.

I know all of this must sound crazy to a person who works with changing behavior where chi rescues feel the behavior will change once they are adopted.

I definitely agree Charlie's problems would be passed along if Kimberly lied as to why she was surrendering the dog and he ended up in a house with kids, otherwise, I see no problem with him being adopted by a house without kids.

Here are some descriptions of chis in foster care for people to see that want to adopt them. Each stared statement is a new dog's description:

**He is great with the other dogs in foster and seems to like men and women, once he is properly introduced. He will be best suited to a home with adults or a family with older children.

**Our foster home has been working with JoJo to help her gain self confidence and learn to trust people. She allows people to pet her, as long as she is in the safety of her foster mom’s arms. JoJo is very sweet, but is still very timid. A little time, and a loving person, will turn her into a great companion.

**The owner’s asked animal control to pick-up their dog because he snapped at his elderly owner. Though they had him since he was a pup all of a sudden, after two years, he would not come in when they called him and when they finally got him in he snapped at the owner. Their adult kids demanded they “get rid of him.” We will never know what changed him from the loving little pet they loved over-night. Jalapeno is a handsome fawn and white, six pound male. The vet was able to handle him to be neutered and the foster mom says that he is doing well, though expresses his opinion occasionally. A home that understands the need for consistent behavior by the owner and has reasonable expectations from their pet will make a good match with this intelligent little guy.

Renee, see what I mean? You must be totally outraged by this, but I'm used to seeing these stories and know chis need a breakin time with each new home or atleast that's what I think.

Bye, Grace

[Casey Laurie]

I'm not a trainer, but I am a parent, and I do have some experience with both fear reactive dogs and children/adults with mental illness.

IMO; there is a big difference between a 3-6lb chi with an attitude problem and a 24-60lb (I have no idea how big he is) husky/cocker mix with a serious bite history against children. I absolutely would not adopt out an animal like that to anyone but, as Renee put it: "a trainer looking for a project dog".

I would also strongly suggest that Seb have a pediatric psych eval ASAP.

Charlie was caught on several occasions holding our cats down and poking them with pencils and pens. He also was warned about playing with Charlie after the second time he was bit and he stated "Oh its okay I wont hurt him this time." I dont know if he was hurting him or not but it is something to take into consederation. How old is this child? This is NOT normal behavior. Animal abuse in children is a very, very serious warning sign that should not go unchecked.

Please don't allow this child anywhere near your animals ever again. After reading that I would also be concerned about leaving him (Seb) unsupervised with my children. This kid scares me.

I think that if Seb is not around, and Charlie has shown no aggression toward your own kids then you can probably still trust Charlie with them as long as they "follow the doggie rules" (as we call it in my house) and the little ones are not unsupervised. I'd definitely use the muzzle if I were taking him out where we would be likely to have close interaction with other children though.

[Renee Premaza]

Hi Grace!

>> chis need a breakin time with each new home <<

All dogs need time to adjust when being re-homed. I agree with Casey that when you're talking about Chihuahua's vs. Labs, Goldens or Mastiffs, you're talking about a whole 'nother ball game. However, don't think a little dog can't send someone to the emergency room. I am working with a little Maltese who bit her "grandma" and granny needed a few stitches!

I know rescuers give more leeway to the smaller dog, but guess what dogs do most of the biting? Little dogs do!!


Hi Renee,

The chi rescue that I check out frequently on the internet adopts dogs out that don't like kids all the time. They just adopt them out to childless families.

As far as some of them not liking males, they will foster them out to families with males where the dogs do get used to males in the home and warm up to them since they discover over time, they are male, but they are different from the male that may have abused them. So in foster care, a dog may improve, but they don't seek out behaviorist to fix these types of problems.

Chis are dogs that get used to one person sometimes and it's hard for them to transfer their feelings to a new person, so they can be aggressive. These dogs are still put in foster care and are adopted out this way with the description of the dog being that the dog may take time to get used to you. It's a chi thing.

Chis don't transfer their feelings over to new people so easily as with some other breeds. Even if a foster family gets a dog to be nicer, they can revert when they are adopted to square one since they have to start over as far as they are concerned with warming up to someone new. Again, it's a chi thing. Can a behaviorist make a chi accept every new person they meet after so many years of being unsocial, I don't know. The rescues are just happy if the adopting family is accepted by the chi; they don't even get into them liking everyone person they meet before they adopt them out. I think this anti-social behavior in chis is just an accepted thing in chi rescues. I think the dogs tend to get used to new homes and people when they get there and not before.

Dogs with housebreaking problems are adopted out too. Their descriptions say whatever problem the dog has, like "working on housebreaking", so the people know what they are in for when the adopt the dog including that they don't like males or children.

This all may not sound right to you, but it's what I'm used to with chi rescues. I don't know that all dog problems HAVE to be solved. A dog does not have to learn to like men or children, do they?

Also, the aggressive behavior does not mean the dog will attack someone. They just aren't easily approachable and fosters and perspective adopting parents seem to realize this and know the dog will take time to like them.

I know all of this must sound crazy to a person who works with changing behavior where chi rescues feel the behavior will change once they are adopted.

I definitely agree Charlie's problems would be passed along if Kimberly lied as to why she was surrendering the dog and he ended up in a house with kids, otherwise, I see no problem with him being adopted by a house without kids.

Here are some descriptions of chis in foster care for people to see that want to adopt them. Each stared statement is a new dog's description:

**He is great with the other dogs in foster and seems to like men and women, once he is properly introduced. He will be best suited to a home with adults or a family with older children.

**Our foster home has been working with JoJo to help her gain self confidence and learn to trust people. She allows people to pet her, as long as she is in the safety of her foster mom’s arms. JoJo is very sweet, but is still very timid. A little time, and a loving person, will turn her into a great companion.

**The owner’s asked animal control to pick-up their dog because he snapped at his elderly owner. Though they had him since he was a pup all of a sudden, after two years, he would not come in when they called him and when they finally got him in he snapped at the owner. Their adult kids demanded they “get rid of him.” We will never know what changed him from the loving little pet they loved over-night. Jalapeno is a handsome fawn and white, six pound male. The vet was able to handle him to be neutered and the foster mom says that he is doing well, though expresses his opinion occasionally. A home that understands the need for consistent behavior by the owner and has reasonable expectations from their pet will make a good match with this intelligent little guy.

Renee, see what I mean? You must be totally outraged by this, but I'm used to seeing these stories and know chis need a breakin time with each new home or atleast that's what I think.

Bye, Grace

[Amber]

It's true! The shelter I used to volunteer at had (and will always have is my guess! lol) a Pekingese with rage syndrome! He was the sweetest dog to the people that he liked, but to the people that he did not like...WATCH OUT! And then...one minute he would be fine and the next he would be flying around in circles, barking wildly at nothing...and then back to normal! Freaky!

[Grace Erick]

Renee,

I thought you were going to totally freak out when you saw the attitudes of the chihuahua rescue people!!!! I may be wrong, but it seems they can learn to like new people, but I'm not sure if it can be accomplished all at once. It seems that every new person has to break them in to be nice to them. It can happen very quickly if they are normal rescues who did not suffer from abuse.

They seem to know where theier bread is buttered and will attach themselves rapidly to you and follow you everywhere when you bring them home.

I tried to help place a chi rescue from NY and I'm in WA. The guy who found the chi was just about to go on vacation, so he had to put the dog in a kill shelter, but asked to keep the dog until he returned if the chi was not taken. I made sure the dog was kept until he got back and when I called to check in, they had the dog listed in an undesireable category. I forgot what they called him, something along the lines of unfriendly. I told them he was friendly, just scared. The man returned to find the dog had some people interested in him. Then the chi was adopted. I had a chi rescue waiting to take him in a few days if he was not adopted by from that shelter. I knew of a rescue, but there were no foster homes anywhere near where the dog was found. The guy was going to drive 3 hours one way to meet the foster people half way.

Bye, Grace

[Sharon Alcon]

First off that child needs some real help, I agree with others. He's the type that grows up to torture small animals. I think that Seb needs training more than the dog. Your dog has had some bad experiences with this child and has put a bad taste in his mouth towards kids. If its anyone's fault he is having the stressful time it is that childs. I would never let my dog around that child again, even when he is older. I would really be careful especially right now with all this dog bite stuff going around all over the place they are just looking to label certain dogs as biters, killers etc. Right now this is very touchy subject as I am a pit bull owner who loves and trusts her dog with all her heart and soul. Right now I live in the Bay Area and CA is going through some BSL possiblities if they can over turn the dangerous dog law already in effect for CA. Dog bites are very serious whatever breed it is and you have to remember right now they seem to be on family member/friends so these are not getting reported I assume but as soon as Charlie gets a child in a park or something he is labeled as a biter. You can face law suits, your homeowners insurances in some cases can drop you for claims. I have alot of these nightmares seeing everything going on out there. My dog is extremely human friendly, he is the biggest lover and people don't understand the problem. What we are working on is the on the leash dog on dog aggression, he is going to classes and doing pretty good. People mis interpt his barking at their dog that he is a aggressive dog waiting to attack and eat you. In my opinion I wouldn't take any chances, you can train and work with him but I don't know that I would ever have that 100% trust. That is hard one and I don't even know what I would do being in your shoes other then keeping him away from kids to protect both them and Charlie. Good luck.

[Grace Erick]

Hi Kimberly,

I don't think you expected this kind of response, but it's not aimed at you personally unless you continue to let Seb come over and be unsupervised around your cat or your dog. Seeing him poke my cat just once would make him not welcome in my home.

There are people that don't care if their kids pull or hit or kick their pets. I saw one couple say they have a dog and are expecting a baby, is there anything they should do, and I really could not believe someone told them to pull on his ears and basically be abusive to him since the child may do the same thing.

How much a child understands depends on their age. There is a point where they need to be surpervised near a pet when they are just to young to really understand.

Bye, Grace

[Kimberly Lyons]

Wow! Sorry its been awhile since I looked in this thread! Charlie is the dog, yes, I think I made a typo there! Thank you ALL for your advice. I truly enjoyed reading your diffrent opinions. Charlie is a fourty pound husky/cocker dog, I call him my Siberian Spaniel. He is not very intemedating and people and children, like to just walk up to him, they never do that with my GSD, who would LOVE to meet them, he loves people, Charlie does not. Charlies problems are not comprable to a chi's problems, yes a small dog can send a child to the emergency room. NO it could not however, send them to an early grave. This is the seriousness of Charlies problems, if there was no one around and he felt threatened by a child, I believe he would kill that child. I absolutely DO NOT trust him around children from the ages of 5 - 12, he loves small babies and toddlers, but children of that age he greets very warily, I dont know many children this age so it is hard for me to get him around this age group to teach him, that "Hey! These kids arent so bad! They give me some great stuff!!!" I dont take him to dog parks where he could get flooded with kids or things like that.

Sebastian, by the way has moved back to Philidephia, his mother is in denial, and since her baby before him died, she dotes on him. Since her move back to Philly, she has severed all contacts down here in the South. She claims she has no family down here, and even though one of her sisters is sick with bone cancer, she is never coming down here again.

I personally dont care, and I am glad that she is staying up there. Her child though has left his mark on my dog and I am angry about that. Charlie is now listening to me when I ask him to stop barking at people walking down the road and he greets people a bit easier now, still wary but he doesnt bark at strangers anymore. If he does I leave, or remove him.

I do have problems with him though with barking at people on the trail, we have an off leash park we go to and he has a problem with people walking down the trail. He barking at them and refuses to come to me. The other dogs get into a barking frenzy and I usually have to go remove him. He has a near perfect recall now (Thanks to his favorite treat.) I am trying to train an emergency recall. I would like to know how to go about this. I am right now, saying the emergency word ("cookies!") and giving him $10,000 dollar rewards. Should this be sufficient? If not how will I go about it? Also any help with the barking issue would be greatly appriciated. He is still not allowed around children, with out a muzzle. He accepts the muzzle but I am worried he will associate it with children, and I know he is sad about wearing it and that he doesnt want it on. Thanks in advance!

[Amber]

I don't know if this is what you are looking for, Kimberly, but I use a whistle with Precious for her recall. I do not have to use the word "Come". I just whistle and she comes straight to me. The weird thing is, I did not have to train her with the whistle. I just bought it at PetsMart one day and started using it and she runs right to me every time! I CAN NOT let her off leash because she has NO off leash recall whatsoever. I'm hoping the whistle will break her of this. Maybe it will work for Charlie, too!

[Kimberly Lyons]

Is is a dog whistle? I bought one a while ago, but I couldnt get it to work. I could hear it and it wasnt very loud. Maybe that will work. Thats an idea! I do whistle to him in the house. But I cant whistle very loudly. Ill work on that though. I dont really like the coachs whistle because it is very grating on the nerves.

[Amber]

No, I use a coach's whistle. I don't blow it very loud...or I should say I haven't had to yet, as Precious stays close by my side, even when she's on her long leash.

[Grace Erick]

Hi Kimberly,

I'm glad Sebatian was not your child, so you didn't take the answers personally or have to deal with keeping the dog or the child, lol:)

I think sometimes dogs to relate bad treatment to men or women or children even though they are really all different people, but I think without even having a dog behavior background, that your dog will learn to behavior posivitely to other kids, when he relized not all "little people" are not all the same. Chis do take time to relate to men that may have abused them in their old home and have to deal with the fosters or new owners in the new homes, but they seem to get over it in time.

I hope it all works out for you. You just never think a kid is abusing your dog when you are not looking. People just don't really think that way unless they catch the kid. I feel you have a good future with your dog and your family with a little patience and time.

Good Luck!!!!

Bye, Grace

[Grace Erick]

Hi Kimberly,

I'm glad Sebatian was not your child, so you didn't take the answers personally or have to deal with keeping the dog or the child, lol:)

I think sometimes dogs to relate bad treatment to men or women or children even though they are really all different people, but I think without even having a dog behavior background, that your dog will learn to behavior posivitely to other kids, when he relized not all "little people" are not all the same. Chis do take time to relate to men that may have abused them in their old home and have to deal with the fosters or new owners in the new homes, but they seem to get over it in time.

I hope it all works out for you. You just never think a kid is abusing your dog when you are not looking. People just don't really think that way unless they catch the kid. I feel you have a good future with your dog and your family with a little patience and time.

Good Luck!!!!

Bye, Grace

[Kimberly Lyons]

I think we are going to have Charlie put to sleep. He attacked my brother and bit his face. We had to take him to the hospital and have stiches put in, three of them above the eye. The attack was entirely unprovoked, Charlie was lying there and my brother walked by, he bent over to pick his wallet up were it was lying on the ground, and he jumped up and grabbed his eye, just as quickly he was lying back down on the ground. If any trainer on here wants to take him PLEASE let me know, because we cant keep him anymore. I hate this, and I hate that Charlie does this, but we cant let him bite anybody else.