Punishment? for bad recall

[Chris Smith]

I had two incidents this weekend regarding Nalu's recall I need advice on how I should handle him in the moment.

1. Nalu and I had just pulled the car into the driveway and needed to walk about 10 steps to the gate of my house. I usually leash him for this short walk since we are right by the street, but have been working on letting him walk from the car to my gate without a leash. Across the street is a house with a German Shephard mix and a cat. Nalu knows that both animals live in this house. Nalu decided to turn and race across the street to the house of the cat and dog rather than walk into my gate. I don't believe the cat or dog were in the windows (I never saw them or heard them). If a car had been coming, Nalu could have easily been hit. I called his name, but he didn't even look back.

What should I have done to "punish" him for both going into the street (he often knows the "no street" command) and for not listening to me when I called him to come?

2. The next day, Nalu and I had just done a long trail hike and we were almost to the car. Nalu started racing towards the street. Again, I called him and got no response. He suddenly changed directions from the street and raced off down another trail. I was relieved he wasn't running towards cars, but I knew he was chasing something. I again called his name and got no response. I saw that he was going full speed towards a horse. I did my strong whistle (the one that means stop dead in your tracks and come back to me) and got nothing. He was right by the horse. I whistled again, he looked up at me, and I happily (high voice and jumping up and down) told him to come towards me and I started running the opposite direction. He looked at the horse again but then turned and ran towards me.

When he got to me I praised him over and over for a "good come". I didn't have any treats with me.

Anything else (or better) that I should have done?

Aside from always having him on a leash, how to handle him being inconsistent or not listening to me with his recall? (BTW it seems to only be when his prey drive kicks in - cats, squirrels, birds, horses).

[Mario Niepel]

Chris, it appears to me that unless you have something like a BB gun or a shock collar, there is really no way you can meet out +P while Nalu is in the act of running away from you.

In essence, while this whole episode is scary, it just tells you that Nalu's recall is not properly distraction proofed, yet. There are a number of ways to teach recall well. I think Patricia McConnell describes teaching recall in great detail in one of her books. One of the tricks she discribes is to actually use the dogs inherent prey drive as reward for a well done recall. That way, a well done recall can actually compete in value with chasing a squirrel, cat or a horse.

Overall, I think you did the right thing in the circumstance. However, I would also suggest that Nalu is not reliable enough, yet, to be off-leash next to a road.

As a final note, you may want to reconsider how you view 'disobediance' in your dog. Don't think of it as Nalu is a bad dog, because she makes the decision of actively disobeying my wishes and chases a cat. Instead, think of it as, I have not taught Nalu yet, that even when there is a cat-distraction, 'come' means: come back to me and you will not be disappointed. That way, you will not be inclined to think of a way to add +P into the equation, but instead to set Nalu up for lots of chances for +R.

[Jill Ramsey]

Chris,
All I can say is practice, practice, practice.
We do recalls with Finnegan all the time, inside and out. Sometimes he gets a treat, most times he just gets praise. I would keep Nalu on a long lead, just outside or somewhere, to make sure that when you call, he comes. Sometimes Finn is on a lead, and sometimes not. We usually keep a 6 ft rope on him just to be sure, like when we are cooking outdoors and he is laying with us enjoying the outside.
There has been 3 times where he started after something- the neighbors dogs, the kids next door, etc., where I have called him back & he came. The first time, going to visit the neighbors 3 german shepards, I didn't even use his name, I just yelled "COME!" To my surprise, he stopped and turned at the same time and came back to me. :tup:
Good Luck!!

[Chris Smith]

Very good points on the +R and +P explanations. I guess my thinking (prior to this website) was that if the dog does something wrong that you feel he truely knows, there is a consequence.

In this type of training, if you do something RIGHT, there is a consequence - a treat! Right? And if they do something wrong, you ignore it. No reaction. Right?

Sometimes it almost seems like Nalu is making a choice to listen to me or not. It's as if he knows he should come back or not chew or whatever, but he is going to test and see whos boss. When this stuff occurs, he will never look me in the eye. He will do what I call "side eyeing me". He looks off to the side of me, won't make direct eye contact, but is not focused on anything else.

We obviously need to continue to work on recall and he did show me that he can't be trusted by the street. But can I actually compete with prey drive??

[Mario Niepel]

Chris, I really don't think that Nalu is testing you. I think you just have to think about a dog as a completely immoral and selfish being.

Dogs do whatever has worked for them in the past. And by 'worked for them' I mean to maximize feeling good.

So, if your dog choses to chase a deer instead of coming back to you, then you need to up the ante and make coming back to you reach the same level of enjoyment as chasing a deer. There are essetially two ways to go about it: make chasing deer less enojoyable (slap an e-collar on your dog and shock him silly) or make coming back more enjoyable (chase game, tug of war, hot dogs, ...). Your dog does not make the conscious decision to defy your wishes. Quite honestly, the dog probably doesn't give a hoot about your wishes and quite likely doesn't even know about your wishes. The dog only knows: chasing deer is fun for Nalu, coming back to Chris when Chris calls 'come' is fun for Nalu. Now it is up to you to tip the scales towards the coming back to Chris.

[Eric Vecc]

Chris, that is the most frustrating and helpless feeling - when the dog is running away from you in a dangerous direction and no recall or whistle will even stutter his steps. Definitely enough to get your heart racing and your desire to 'punish' your dog going. I have the exact same situation when we let him out of the car and started walking to our fence. He has been allowed to follow me outside the fence many times but the first time he just bolted across the street was the last time allowed off leash outside fence. He did it 3-4 times when there was snow on the ground. He ran 4 houses up without looking back. I called and called and got nothing. But that was when he was a puppy. This other incedent just recently happened and he totally lost my trust. I wish he only understood how important trust is with me and when you break it - life is going to be less enjoyable (less freedoms). I just purchased a 30 ft cable lead and a screw post for visits to friends houses. He will not be happy but, until he learns the recall, he is going to have to deal with it.

[Jill Ramsey]

Chris,
How old is Nalu now? Could he be going through one of those adolescent stages?

We have 3 different lengths of a nylon, synthetic rope that my husband has attached clips to. One is about 6 feet, one is very long, probably 30-50 feet, and one is about 15-20 feet. My husband uses the long one when he walks Finn in the forest preserve/field across the street. The other ones, we use in the yard. The long ones do not have a hand loop on the ends, and because they are the nylon material, do not catch on things very easily.
Usually, they are just dragging on the ground. We don't trust Finnegan enough to let him "off leash" completely. However, we give him the chance to obey if he starts off after someone or something. I would say 98% of the time, he listens and will stay with us. IF not, we step on the rope and reel him back to us and when he gets back, we praise, and treat if we have one.
If we are walking to the dog pen, and he sees the kids next door, and wants to go play, before he takes off, I will redirect his attention, I will command him to sit. When he sits, I will praise, then tell him okay, lets go potty, and usually he will continue to walk by me. If not, we do it again.
I also don't require him to heel while in the yard unless we are actually obedience training. He knows the command "over here" means I want him within about 3 or 4 feet of me, but not in the heel position. I trained that command the same way. Say the command and give a tug on the rope/leash, and when he gets within 3 feet, praise "good over here".

I hope some of this helps. I know it has worked for us.

[Renee]

Here are 2 really great dvds for teaching recall.

- Patricia McConnell's Lasise Come!
http://www.dogsbestfriendtr aining.com/books-retail.php

-Leslie Nelson's Totally Reliable Recall
http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=D TB810

Somtimes it just helps to see someone in action....

[Chris Smith]

Thanks again for the feedback and advice. Because Nalu has improved so much and does respons the majority of the time to what I am asking, I probably thought he was more solid on his recall than he really is so I have been letting him off leash a lot. His prey drive is very strong and of course, we haven't had that type of distraction when we are doing training. I clearly need to work with him more (and probably get some long lead lines) and add in more powerful distractions.

[Jennifer Hughes]

I also have a dog with a VERY high predatory/herding drive (squirrels, bikes, geese, cars, even butterflies) and perfect recall has been elusive. I find it hard to compete with things when she is in chase mode, and I've had to scale back off-leash walks to avoid setting her up for failure. My wish would be to let her off leash when we are hiking and have her turn tail and come back if we encounter a bear. An unleashed, unreliable dog is dangerous in the backcountry. Until that time, though, it's on-leash and more practice.

I can offer only one piece of advice to anyone who has a dog with poor recall. I took an entire class for several months on Reliable Recall and on Day 1, they made every one of us choose another word for the recall. Dogs who wouldn't come to 'come' learned to come to 'here' for example. It worked extremely well, since a lot of the dogs had learned poor behaviour in association with the word 'come'. Doesn't apply to you, Chris, since it sounds like you are making excellent progress. Anyways, I can relate...

[Gaddy Mep]

If you know he won't come to you, go over to him and get him. If you say come and let him have a million tries, the word will mean nothing to him.

Start with the dog on a long lead (around 15'). Have treats handy (something really yummy, like liver treats). Walk around the yard with him, letting him sniff and do this and that. Don't just say "come," reel him in. Say, "come!" and start reeling him in. Once he is right be you, make a big deal out of it, "Good boy! Oooh, such a good boy!" and give him a treat. If coming is fun, he's going to come. He's going to think, "Hey, I get treats and I'm all spoiled when I come!" but if coming isn't fun (like if you yell at him for taking a long time), he'll think, "Coming isn't fun, 'cause I get in trouble, so I won't come." and he won't come.

[papbouv]

My old Bouvier that passed on last April Jake 28 " at the shoulder & about 113# a big boy,we went to the park about 3 times a week I also got into the habit of dropping his leash telling him porch he would go to the porch. Now for you that do not know Bouvier's are very protective. Jake saw a jogger going down the street I did not see him Jake circled around to get between me & the jogger and barked(big bark). I said Jake come normal voice Jake went closer to the jogger who had stopped. Then I said Jake come in my obedience voice Jake turned came in did a perfect re-call the jogger was very relieved. After that never dropped the leash again keep your dog on leash if he has a high prey drive. You can also go to tennis courts when no one is playing it is usually all fenced in pratice your re-calls on a long line. The only time you really need to have an off leash dog is when you are doing obedience at a show.Nowdays people are too sue happy, may get hit by a car,deer can kill a dog easy,too many thing can happen not worth a dead dog or sky high vet bills.
Papbouv