Opinions please, use of positive punishment

[Summer Magic]

I've posted several times regarding Magic's issues with bells (phone, door bell and oven timer) She is doing well with the back off command and hasn't tried to bite us in several weeks now. But the problem I've been having with her is when someone comes to the door. At first she is in a frenzy barking and hurling herself at my very large picture windows (they are floor to ceiling) I'm afraid she'll get cut if one of them ever breaks. My biggest problem is she simply can't hear me when I call her name to put her in her safe spot. I was discussing this with another veteran sheltie owner and she suggested I break into the frenzy by using a positive punishment, just enough to allow her to hear me call her name. This lady suggested I get a spray water bottle and squirt her with just plain water when she doesn't respond to my call. I have done this six times now, and it does stop the frenzy and I am able to put her in her safe spot so I can greet my guests. Magic does not exhibit any aggression once the people are in the house and will go to them and greet them happily once they are inside. Tho this is supposed to be a positive punishment I'm still unsure if I am helping or hindering her training. She definately does not like the water spray. She does receive treats when she stays in her safe spot until she is released. Then I leave it up to her as to whether she greets my guests or not. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

[Debbie Chastain]

The first thing I would suggest, is what I call: "Wait 3 seconds...". I think your dog is "cueing" to your reaction to the phone, the doorbell, or anything announcing an "intruder alert". If you count to three, whenever your home recieves an "outside cue", ("...Renee, where are you when I need you!"), before moving towards it, you will appear to be calm and in control. This let's your dog know everything is OK, and they can remain calm. If you pop-up from whatever you are doing the minute you hear these sounds, your dog will learn to be on "allert" because of what you've communicated through your body language.

[Susan Bacon]

Judy,
Although my opinion will likely be opposed by many folks, I've also got a dog that is reactive to certain (many) situations. At times it is extremely hard to get him refocused no matter what I do. We have a private trainer who concentrates on +R, but is also aware of when it is time to come in the "back door" to get his attention--a gentle method such as a water bottle is the main method that we've used that works very effectively. At times he becomes so intent that it is a reminder to him that there are expectations he needs to meet...

From what you've said and what I like to believe that we do, is that you gently "goose" your dog to remind him that you are there and that you are the boss (waterbottle), getting him away from his obsessive behavior. He responds in a positive manner and it's back to business with rewarding and treating of positive behaviors. I do the same thing without punishment or angry voices--it's simply a reminder--hey! focus!

As a former elementary teacher who only focused on +R with her kids, sometimes with certain kiddos I had to use some quick and snappy methods to get them thinking--hey! focus! And then we were back on task as usual. No prong collars, no whips, no chains, just lots of love and devotion to your task. I think you're doing great!

[Amber]

I agree with both you, Judy and Susan. I use a water bottle with Precious when I bring her to the shelter with me. She knows she is not supposed to bark and carry on while crated, yet she does it while at the shelter. All I have to do is show her the bottle and she settles down.

[Melissa Brunoehler]

Hi Judy~

I'm afraid that even though the water seems to be helping now it will make things worse in the long run. You stated that she does not like the water & as you know dogs learn by association. I'm afraid that eventually she'll get even more frenzied when someone comes to the door; to her someone coming to the door will equal getting sprayed with water. I have not read all your posts so there might be a reason you can't do the following, but I would try blocking her access as much as possible from the picture window. I would also leave a light line on her so that you can gently walk her away from the area if need be.

I've posted several times regarding Magic's issues with bells (phone, door bell and oven timer) She is doing well with the back off command and hasn't tried to bite us in several weeks now. But the problem I've been having with her is when someone comes to the door. At first she is in a frenzy barking and hurling herself at my very large picture windows (they are floor to ceiling) I'm afraid she'll get cut if one of them ever breaks. My biggest problem is she simply can't hear me when I call her name to put her in her safe spot. I was discussing this with another veteran sheltie owner and she suggested I break into the frenzy by using a positive punishment, just enough to allow her to hear me call her name. This lady suggested I get a spray water bottle and squirt her with just plain water when she doesn't respond to my call. I have done this six times now, and it does stop the frenzy and I am able to put her in her safe spot so I can greet my guests. Magic does not exhibit any aggression once the people are in the house and will go to them and greet them happily once they are inside. Tho this is supposed to be a positive punishment I'm still unsure if I am helping or hindering her training. She definately does not like the water spray. She does receive treats when she stays in her safe spot until she is released. Then I leave it up to her as to whether she greets my guests or not. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

[Alberta Hanko]

Hi Judy and all - This is a situation I have had with Linus, who is very reactive. I have a large bay window, and he perches up there and then goes off at whatever is going on. We are now working with a behaviorist who only uses +R and she did a little research and asked some questions to other trainers and found an idea. Since we can't board up the window :-), and my house is not set up to limit his access, and he does enjoy some quiet time up there, we are working a a two or three bark theory. Linus barks, I go over to the window, look out and say calmly "Yes, I see there is someone out there riding their bike", or whatever. Then I call him away, take him to his mat and ask for a "settle", and give him a couple of small special treats. He is now barking twice and looking for me, so it is working, and he does dash with me to his mat. Eventually, we are hoping it will be a couple of barks, and then he runs for the mat. I too am against water squirting because we did that with Linus way back, at a trainer's recommendation, and it took him a long time to trust us after that. Also, your timing has to be perfect, with any even a mild aversive--and mine sure never would be, and it should not have to be done more than a couple of times from what I have read.

Good luck.

Alberta & Linus

[Renee]

What happens if you don't have the spray bottle? Sometimes dogs only learn to do things in the PRESENCE of the spray bottle. If you have to use this technique more than 2 or 3 times then it is not an effective use of +P. At least you are rewarding her when she returns to her safe spot....if you use +P, you still have to install the desired behavior, which you are doing. But, you have already used this technique 6 times and Magic is still reacting to visitors, then it is not working. Plus, if you are spraying Magic after she has already thrown herself in the window, then it is too late - she has already been internally rewarded for reacting. Timing is everything.....

You have a highly reactive dog, so using systematic desentization, counterconditioning, and managment techniques are the best tools in you tool box. Why not just have her drag a leash around....remove her from what is triggering her reactivity and bring her to her safe spot. Have you considered curtains or blinds on the picture window. As you already know, absolute control of the enviorment is imperative.

Question: Is she reacting just to the visual of the visitor or is the doorbell coupled with the visitor that sets her off?

[Mario Niepel]

One thing to consider is that it is really hard for a dog to learn if the dog is emotionally out of control. You say that when Magic is in a frenzy, positive reinforcement does not work-- she can't hear you, she won't react, ... Now, the question is, is Magic at this particular time able to learn anything at all? Even though the +P interrupts the behavior, does that mean she really learns anything? I think you have heard plenty of opinions about the dangers and advantages of using +P in this situation, so I will not weigh in on that.

I just suggest to you that training may go easier and faster, if you keep Magic in a state where she is relatively calm, which means that she is in a state where learning will come easier to her.

What specifically triggers Magic's frenzy? Is it somebody knocking on the door? Ringing the doorbell? Walking by the window? Once you know what exactly triggers the frenzy, try to replicate this under controlled conditions and observe Magic very carefully. Do you see her perking up her ears when somebody is starting to walk up to your door? Does she seem tense when a car comes up your driveway? Is there any noticeable change in her demeanour BEFORE she goes into her frenzy? Observe very carefully for this and to exactly determine the trigger you may need the help of a friend who can play the role of 'intruder'.

Once you found such a trigger, that elicits a reaction but does not get Magic into her frenzy, you then start counterconditioning against that. e.g. have your friend walk up to the doorstep without knocking or ringing the doorbell or have somebody driving up your driveway without actually getting out of the car, ... Don't waste your time while she is in a frenzy, as you already know, she is beyond listening and learning at that point. And, just like you saw with the phone, you will gradually see an improvement and tolerance toward these cues. And then you just slowly work yourself up... have the person get out of the car, have the person stand at the door and make a little noise, ... By slowly increasing the strength of the trigger, Magic should be able to remain calm at all times that you are training with her, so she should remain able to actually learn.

Sorry for this rambling post, I hope it made a little bit of sense. If not, I will try and explain it better a little later.

[Summer Magic]

I understand what you are trying to convey, the picture windows are wall to wall on the lake side right by the front entry she has full view of the front yard, the lake and the neighbors drive. I've had curtains, blinds and even tried some lattus guards on the windows, she tore them all apart. It's the movement that she is reacting to (not to mention a few lamps crashing to the floor). A boat on the lake, someone in a car, someone on the sidewalk she goes off on. I now just say Magic do I need the water bottle, and she stops barking and comes to me to go to her safe spot (she doesn't go there by herself yet but we are getting there.) I just don't want to make things worse for her. she's come sooo far and I want her to be comfortable in her own home.

[Renee Premaza]

Hi Judy!

You said, "But the problem I've been having with her is when someone comes to the door. At first she is in a frenzy barking and hurling herself at my very large picture windows (they are floor to ceiling) I'm afraid she'll get cut if one of them ever breaks. My biggest problem is she simply can't hear me when I call her name to put her in her safe spot."

Part of using good leadership skills means that you will keep your dog out of harm's way. If you had a toddler in your home, you would baby-proof your house to make sure he didn't get hurt. If you had a sewing room, you wouldn't allow him in that room for fear he would hurt himself on your pins, needles and scizzors. Now, we know dogs are not our children, but... Magic is getting hurt each time she hurls herself at the window, not just potentially dangerous from a physical standpoint, but she injuring herself from a behavioral standpoint. First, she's learning to do this behavior more and more everytime it happens, which makes for a really problematic habit-forming addiction. Secondly, it's certainly not making her happy when she's in this frenzied state. The reason she can't hear you is because she's in such an aroused state that she is processing information from her Limbic Brain, which is where the fight and flight response comes from. She is not processing information from her rational brain when she's behaving like this. Have you ever been in a situation that you told someone, "I couldn't even think straight?" Well, you couldn't because you were also processing information from YOUR Limbic Brain. When you call out her name during these times, Magic cannot even hear you! There are chemicals that wash over the brain during these times that will keep the dog in a state of arousal for quite sometime until those chemicals wash out of the brain.

I don't know how your house is laid out, but if it's at all possible, I would restrict Magic from even going into this room at anytime when you can't be there to remove her from a bad situation. I would put a sign on your door that says, "doorbell out of order." Or you could put electrical tape over the doorbell to prevent people from even seeing it's there.

If you know someone is expected to visit, tell them NOT to ring the bell or to knock on the door. Tell them to call you as they're about to park the car so you can either remove Magic from that room or so you can already have her in another room where things are much quieter and she may not even know someone's come through the front door.

You said, "This lady suggested I get a spray water bottle and squirt her with just plain water when she doesn't respond to my call. I have done this six times now, and it does stop the frenzy and I am able to put her in her safe spot so I can greet my guests."

But if she wasn't able to be near the door or hear the bell, you wouldn't have to resort to spraying her, and if she was already in her safe spot when you know visitors are coming, all of this negative training could be avoided. I can tell you that you might be suppressing her behavior temporarily, but you're not teaching her a more positive, more appropriate behavior to choose when you're squirting her. More often than not, positive punishment comes back to bite US in the butt. It deteriorates the relationship between the human and the dog because now the dog doesn't have complete trust in the person. There goes the leadership role right down the tubes.

I would suggest to you that you get a positive trainer who could use classical conditioning and operant conditioning to teach her to go to her place WHEN she hears the bell or knocking on the door. This has to be done very slowly as it's a desensitization process. You can't work on this WHEN someone actually visits. You need to shape her behaviors when you merely tap on the door where it's barely audible, and then give her wonderfully delicious treats for remaining calm and non-reactive. Any quick fix type of method will only wind up creating more negative, manic behaviors.

I met a sheltie once who sounds like Magic. The owner was impatient to work slowly, and from what I've heard, the dog has not gotten any better. You have done other very hard work with Magic, and you're seeing results. Your dog can and will learn if you just take your time and put out the effort. This particular problem, IMO does warrant some professional assistance.

Hope this helps!


I've posted several times regarding Magic's issues with bells (phone, door bell and oven timer) She is doing well with the back off command and hasn't tried to bite us in several weeks now. But the problem I've been having with her is when someone comes to the door. At first she is in a frenzy barking and hurling herself at my very large picture windows (they are floor to ceiling) I'm afraid she'll get cut if one of them ever breaks. My biggest problem is she simply can't hear me when I call her name to put her in her safe spot. I was discussing this with another veteran sheltie owner and she suggested I break into the frenzy by using a positive punishment, just enough to allow her to hear me call her name. This lady suggested I get a spray water bottle and squirt her with just plain water when she doesn't respond to my call. I have done this six times now, and it does stop the frenzy and I am able to put her in her safe spot so I can greet my guests. Magic does not exhibit any aggression once the people are in the house and will go to them and greet them happily once they are inside. Tho this is supposed to be a positive punishment I'm still unsure if I am helping or hindering her training. She definately does not like the water spray. She does receive treats when she stays in her safe spot until she is released. Then I leave it up to her as to whether she greets my guests or not. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

[Maria Juliano]

Renee,

Your post is EXCELLENT!! :yourock:

I hope people can learn from it... I sure did!

Thank you,