Prong collars

[Beth Pladson]

Hello, all. I have a question about pronged collars and I hope I'm in the right place to ask this :D I've had a very difficult time getting my 11 mo old female lab (she's about 55-60 lbs) to walk without tearing ligaments in my arm. I've tried the Gentle leader and a halter someone recommended here. I was very resistant to the idea of using a prong since I didn't know how to fit it or use it. Then I was out on a walk with her and ran into a couple with a lab and they suggested borrowing their prong collar and they used it when their dog was about the same size as mine. I've been using it regularly on our walks for about two weeks. But since I've been reading some of these posts, a couple questions arose...
how do I know if it's fitting her correctly? I assumed it would be okay since they said they used it on their dog at her size, but it seems kind of big on her.
What about prong size? I read another post that mentioned smaller prongs with a plastic tip. Where can these be found and are they better for some breeds than others?

Thanks in advance!

[Daniela Jantzen]

Beth,

I have to admit it right away, I hate prongs. And matter of factly, they are even illegal in many countries here in Europe for the fact that they can be VERY harmful to a dog.

If you don't mind, I would appreciate it if you could share your experience with your dog with us.
What exactly have you been trying to prevent her from pulling? For how long and how consequent have you been working on the various methods?
Are you the only one walking the dog? If not, who else is doing so and has this person used the same methods as you?

There are many gentle and humane ways to work with nothing else but a light harness or flat-buckle collar and still get the dog to walk nicely on the leash.
If you want, we could gather the various methods here in this thread and you simply pick the one which you think fits the best for you and your dog.

Danny

[Debbie Chastain]

After reading through a debate in another site, the greatest concern most people had was that people were using these collars with no instruction or in place of training. Please, find someone who will show you how to use it correctly, and please don't use it at all if you can't control your temper.

The difference between a tool or a torture device is inside the person using it.

That being said, I was the person who mentioned the mini-prong. It was on a dog I was working with a couple of months ago. I checked around at our local pet/dog shops & couldn't find one, (Just a note: I personally don't care for the design of the large prongs, and don't use them, even with the dog-aggressive, 120 lb Tibetan Mastiff I work with!). This may be a new collar, which has not made it to the smaller shops. I really did like it's design and how it worked. I live in an isolated place, so I'll have to look for it when I'm in the big city or online.

[Renee]

Beth-

Prong collars cause pain...that is why they work so well. The problem with prong collars is that they can cause behaviorial side effects. Some dogs become reactive on lead when they see other dogs because they are assoicating the pain of the prong collar with sight of another dog. I do a lot of mountain bike racing and everyone brings their dogs to these races. I have never seen so many choke chains and prong collars in my life. I have also never seen so many ill mannered, leash aggressive dogs in my life either.

There is really no reason that a gentle leader, sensation harness, halti or easy walk harnness shouldn't work. There are 3 important steps to making a head halter or harness work for you and your dog.

1. Fit the harness or head halter to your dog. You should be able to follow the provided instructions. If your dog is a tricky fit, an experienced trainer can help find the right size or type head halter or harness for your dog.

2. Desentize the dog to the harness or head halter. The way I taught my dog to accept the gentle leader is by putting it on her for small amounts of time and then feeding hot dogs. When the gl came off, the hot dogs went away. I slowly increased the time that the gl was on. Soon, I didn't need the hot dogs and she associated the gentle leader with going on walks.

3. Sensitize the dog to walking with the harness or head halter. If the dog is pulling, stop walking. Use the "be a tree" method just like you would if you were teaching loose leash walking. While out with my dog, I have seen so many dogs that are desentized to their halti's, gentle leaders, and choke chains even (no wonder why chokers cause so much damage to the esophagus). This isn't any fun for the owner who is being pulled along and the dog who choking himself and possibly damaging the soft tissue around the esophagus.

So if your dog is pulling through the gentle leader, then it is an issue that you have desentized your dog to the head halter. So follow the suggestions in #3 and sensitize your dog to walking with the head halter on again.

[Debbie Chastain]

3. Sensitize the dog to walking with the harness or head halter. If the dog is pulling, stop walking. Use the "be a tree" method just like you would if you were teaching loose leash walking. While out with my dog, I have seen so many dogs that are desentized to their halti's, gentle leaders, and choke chains even (no wonder why chokers cause so much damage to the esophagus).



Renee,

The "be a tree", is a great technique! Would you mind going into a little more detail with this for those who maybe haven't heard of how this works?

Also, I have only personally seen the sensasion harness used once. Could you give us some info on how this is used, and the benefits of this harness as a training tool?

Thanks!

[Beth Pladson]

Thank you so much for you replies! Since I already have both the Sensation and the Gentle Leader, I will give them a try again.

I must ask for more suggestions please...

When I used the Gentle Leader, she spent more time trying to get it off than walking, even doing somersaults, and she kept chewing the ring on the Halter and, though it seemed I was following the fitting instructions, it didn't seem to fit right-she's kind of top heavy and narrow through the ribs, if that makes any sense.

Thanks again and I really appreciate you feedback!

[Tracey Wilson]

I have been working with a large breed rescue for quite a while now. The one thing that I have noticed is that the head halters do have aversive effects on some dogs. I have seen dogs shut down completely. I have used the easy walk harness, but it chaffs the underarms on every dog I have tried it with. I know I have these things fitted properly because they have been fit by trainers.

My vet does not recommend head halters due to the stress on the neck, especially that of a large breed dog. I can really see her point. I have used prong collars and flat buckle training to stop pulling. Put the prong collar on your arm, fit it to size and pull against it, it is not painful.

I know this is a forum for + techiniques only, so I understand that my post may not be appreciated. In the times I have used prong collars, the training has still been very positive. There is no harsh corrections, never heard one yelp. The collar tightens a bit and the dog stops pulling. But the tail is still wagging and the dog is still enthusiastic. The spirit of the dog was not broken as I saw when using the GL or Halti. I think that every dog needs to be observed to see what method will work best. Nothing is 100% for every dog.

Good luck, I say the fact the the dog is out walking is the first step to changing the behaviour. If you need to use the prong for the first part of the walk, just to get her excersised and more receptive to training, then I see no problem. One some of her enegergy has been worked off, try the "tree method" or my favorite. Change directions to the left in front of the dog whenever it starts pulling. This has worked wonders!

Good luck!!

[Renee]

I know I have these things fitted properly because they have been fit by trainers.


Hi Tracey,

Your post is indeed appreciated here....

Don't assume that the harness has been fitted correctly just because it was fitted by a trainer. I know many behaviorists and trainers that have been fitting haltis, gentle leaders, and sensation harnesses for a very long time, with little to no problems with behavior or chaffing. (Actually, the gl can do wonders for dogs with behavioral problems...)

If you have seen dogs that shut down with a gl, was any desentization work done? In those cases, I would be inclined to try a sensation harness....have you tried it? The easy walk is a very new product, so I haven't personally used it yet....but many trainers and behaviorists really seem to like the easy walk and haven't really reported too many problems with it. And some of the trainers I talked to prefer the Easy Walk harness over the head halters for dogs of all sizes (unless there is an aggression issue, then gentle leaders are the preference...Trish King actually fits aggressive dogs with a gentle leader and sensation harness to give her clients more control). Many people have a natual tendency to pull back on the leash when their dog pulls (b/c muscles work in opposition), so many trainers won't use prongs or head halters, just harnesses because of user error.

In addition, if you have a dog that is leash reactive, a prong would be a highly inappropirate choice and could sensitize the dog to it's triggers (which I have seen this quite a bit)

[Renee]

I use the "Be a Tree" Method when I practice loose leash walking with my dog. It very simple, the dog is wearing a flat buckle collar and is attached to a regular leash (no flexi leashes). Start out in your driveway or some other place that is not exciting. Walk with the dog, if the leash becomes tight because your dog is pulling, stop walking and be a tree. When the leash is loose again, start walking. The dog learns pulling stops the walk and a loose leash continues the walk. In addition to this, I do click and treat focused attention exercises. I like my dog to "check in" with me when we are on a walk.

Now practicing loose leash walking is not an enjoyable activity when you are on a real walk. So consider using a head halter or no-pull harness for real walks, so your dog does not get in the habit of pulling under any circumstance. This is why I particularly hate flexi leashes, the totally desentize the dog to tension on the leash and collar. Remember, we can dumb training down to two simple concepts: in every interaction with our dogs, we are either SENSITIZING or DESENTIZING our dogs. You don't have to spend a lot of time working on loose leash training. I only spend 2 minutes a day - the walk from my car to the dog park entrance. But they are a very important 2 minutes. We don't move forward unless the leash is loose. If I take my dog on an extended walk, then I use her sensation harness which keeps her from pulling the leash tight.

There are a few other methods for loose leash walking. Some trainers like to do "penality yards" - when the dog pulls, they take two or so steps back. Or like Tracey mentioned, if your dog pulls, do a 180 and walk in the other direction (I think this is a Dr. Patricia McConnell technique). So see what works for you...

[Kimberly Lyons]

I agree with Debbie. I use a prong collar on my Shepherd because I am not very strong and he is :D 8) , The importance is in knowing how to use it right!!! I do not correct when he moves out of heel position I simply put him back in it. I do not correct if he looks at other dogs, I simply keep walking.

This website shows how to properly fit a prong collar. I would also recommend reading more about it. As long as the collar is used properly it will be effective, then once the dog is conditioned not to pull, you can go back to a flat collar, unless the dog has become "collar smart"

http://leerburg.com/fit-prong.htm

I cant remember who asked about mini prongs but here is one you can order:

http://leerburg.com/prong.htm#micro

Hope this helps!!

[Mario Niepel]

Kimberly, could you explain what "becom[ing] collar smart" means? Is that a common occurrence with prong collars?

[Renee]

Kimberly-

That website that you listed recommends that people treat dog aggression with corrections, prongs and maybe even shock collars...

[Daniela Jantzen]

A very good way for food addicted dogs (which covers about 80% of all dogs in this world) to teach a dog not to pull but pay attention to you is "clicking".
No, I am not talking about using the clicker. ;)

All you have to do is stuff you pockets full of treats. Once your dog strolls forward, click with your tongue like a horse handler. Most dogs react to this unusual sound and turn their head. Reward at once with a treat and walk on.
Repeat, when the leash is about to get tight.
It won't take long for the dog to associate "click = treat when looking around".
Once you have reached this point and the dog turns towards you in expectation of the treat, walk two steps backwards and the dog will follow - reward and walk on. Repeat until the dog turns around and walks two steps towards you on its own.
Next step would be to reward it when it walked all the way up to you after you tongue click (or whatever sound you want to make).
Once you have reached this point, you can go one step further.
As soon as the dog reached you, don't reward, but turn around and walk away into the other direction. Reward it for being at your side, then click and change direction again.

All in all it usually doesn't take longer than a few days to get even strong-headed and experienced pullers to walk nicely on the leash.
After longer periods of training, the "click and follow"- procedure can also help to get your dog out of situations you might want to avoid (e.g. when it is reactive to other dogs or humans).

This is the way I work with new dogs in our day care when going for a walk.
These are a whole variety of dogs of various breeds, from little chis to huge rotts, rhodesians and great pyrenees. I have yet to meet a dog with which it does not work...... (ok, but for one Jack Russel Terrier - I used a squeaky toy with that one and got the same result)
And everything needed is a flat-buckle collar or a simple harness, a leash and a pocket full of yummy treats.

As I had mentioned above, prongs are illegal in many countries here in Europe.
Before advocating its use and claim it does work wonders, try to imagine you live in one of these countries, have a large dog which tends to pull.
How would you get it to stop pulling?
How comes so many owners of heavy and large dogs can handle them without any problems - even without using a prong?

Danny

[Daniela Jantzen]

Kimberly, could you explain what "becom[ing] collar smart" means? Is that a common occurrence with prong collars?
I assume she is talking about those dogs who are smart enough to realize what collar they are wearing. These dogs won't pull on a prong, but on a flat buckle colllar.
So actually, they have not learned not to pull and how to walk nicely on the leash, but to respect the collar and its effect.
In other words: you have treated the symptoms, not the cause.

Danny

[Renee]

Do you guys know why the prong fit article tells the owner place the prong high on the dog's neck? Because it HURTS more than placing it low on the dog's neck. Because there are more nerves and less muscle high on a dog's neck.....

Trainers who place prong and choker collars high on a dog's neck do so intentionally.....to make it hurt more - especially when they issue a leash correction....

While we don't advocate prongs here, if you do use a prong please do not fit your dog that way....that is not how +R trainers who use prongs (as there are a few) would fit a dog...

[Kimberly Lyons]

This isnt a +R "only" forum this is a place to discuss the philsophys and diffrent ideas and ways people train their dogs and the reasonings behind them.

That said prong collars a not a cure all, nor will they fix every problem. I simply stated that they help me walk my dog and that they could help you as well. I know that the website is non positive reinforcement. I directed you to the page about prong collars. The reason the collar is place high on the neck is because you do not need to use a hard correction to guide the dog. The dog essentially corrects itself, when pulling the dog hits the end of the leash and corrects itself. You praise it when it comes back to you therby providing +R when the dog is corrected. Any collar can be misused. Any training tool can hurt a dog unintentionally. The key is knowlegde and knowing how to use it to train your dog.

[Renee]

You are right...this particular forum is an open place for discussion....but I will have to respectfully disagree with you on the prong collar fit. Trainers who place prongs and chokes high on the neck do so because it is more painful...as does the trainer on the website that you posted.

While we don't advocate prong collars on this website, I will direct you to Suzanne Clothier's article about prong collars. I certainly don't agree with everything that Suzanne believes, but I do have a tremendous amount of respect for her.

http://www.flyingdogpress.c om/prong.html

Suzanne is a well-respected, and well-known dog trainer and behaviorist (and member of the IAABC). She is author of Bones Would Rain from the Sky and many other publications. I met Suzanne last month at a 3 day wolf seminar. When asked how many times in the last year has she recommended a prong to a client, Suzanne's answer was 0 times in the last year. Suzanne is a believer in the less equipment, the better. The more equipment you have the more disconnected you are from your dog...

[Beth Pladson]

I'm glad to see my question caused an open debate of these collars as I've heard both good and negative from people without any real reason behind their opinions. I've started doing the 180 degree turn around thing and she definitely is responding to that. I think I will also start using Daniela's suggestion of the click and treat idea. She is most decidedly a foodie, like most labs, and reacts well to the promise of treats. We've decided to enroll in a class and hopefully that will help us address this issue as well as her overly excitability. That being said, can anyone recommend a good resource or trainer in the Sacramento, CA area? I will also post a general message regarding this.

Thanks a bunch for all the feedback!

[Laura Redhawk]

If you ARE choosing to use a Prong Collar, YOU do not do ANY CORRECTIONS AT ALL. The dog will do the correcting when they pull against the collar and you are not allowing yourself to be dragged along.

This is one of the big problems with using this type of collar. Not only is it painful, but the majority of persons using it have no clue as to how it really works.

ANY collar CAN CAUSE harm, pain, discomfort to any dog if used incorrectly. This includes Flat Collars (human insists on harshly jerking the dog, in a fit of frustration at the dog's normal pulling) Gentle Leaders, (likewise JERKED ON incorrectly) will cause neck, shoulder and back pain that you may not initially be aware of.

Renee's suggestions are simply the best, number 1 way to put a stop to insane pulling. We have to have clearness in OUR actions, and be prepared to be calm, relaxed and consistant in all we do with working with our companions.

Think about it, if you were leading a horse, being a bully would get you no where fast, except probably hurt. Plus horses are spooky by nature, you'll never win a battle of strength with a 1000+ pound horse. So, use your wits!

If your dog is prone to being hyper, try a rousing bit of play BEFORE you take them out for a stroll. Work some of the tickle out of their feet first! Almost EVERY DOG will respond positively to SOME SORT of Treat...even if you have to bump the goodie up to boiled chicken liver bits...something will get their attention (unless the behavior is fear motivated, in which case they have a bigger issue to work through), find out what gets YOUR dog's attention and USE IT to your mutual advantage!

Remember if both of you are not having FUN...something is wrong with the training lesson...if you are unable to muster somesort of happy grin for some small step taken in the right direction, then you are probably broadcasting negative feelings and accidental behaviors to your dog either emotionally, or physically. Never attempt to train, if you are not feeling your best. Learning is supposed to be FUN for both of you...not a horrible, frustrating event to endure.

YOU can do it, and with your help...so can your DOG!
Wags
Laura

[Laura Redhawk]

I believe that in most cases....LESS IS MORE! The less between us and others, including our companion animals...the MORE connected we can become!
Bravo!
Laura

You are right...this particular forum is an open place for discussion....but I will have to respectfully disagree with you on the prong collar fit. Trainers who place prongs and chokes high on the neck do so because it is more painful...as does the trainer on the website that you posted.

While we don't advocate prong collars on this website, I will direct you to Suzanne Clothier's article about prong collars. I certainly don't agree with everything that Suzanne believes, but I do have a tremendous amount of respect for her.

http://www.flyingdogpress.c om/prong.html

Suzanne is a well-respected, and well-known dog trainer and behaviorist (and member of the IAABC). She is author of Bones Would Rain from the Sky and many other publications. I met Suzanne last month at a 3 day wolf seminar. When asked how many times in the last year has she recommended a prong to a client, Suzanne's answer was 0 times in the last year. Suzanne is a believer in the less equipment, the better. The more equipment you have the more disconnected you are from your dog...