Dominance and Aggression - what is what?

[Daniela Jantzen]

In a thread in another section of the forum the question about a behaviour being dominant or aggressive was raised.
As these are two terms which are often mixed up, misinterpreted or simply misunderstood, maybe we could gather our thoughts and personal definitions on them to help others to understand what exactly we are talking about - and what their dogs might really be like.

What do you think?

What would you consider "aggressive"?
What is "dominance" in your eyes?
Is aggression or dominance good or bad?

Danny

[Renee]

I don't have a lot of time to post right now...so maybe I post more later.

Dominance aggression is an outdated term. We now call it Control-Conflict Aggression. It is actually very rare and the dogs who have it are usually "abnormal".

I actually spent 3 days studying wolf/canine behaivor with Pat Goodman and Suzanne Clothier so I have pretty good definitions of dominance and social heirarchy

More later...gotta run..

[Daniela Jantzen]

Dominance aggression is an outdated term. We now call it Control-Conflict Aggression. It is actually very rare and the dogs who have it are usually "abnormal".


Renee,
I was not talking about "dominance aggression" in particular. :)
I was talking about the differences between dominance and aggression as both terms are often mixed up by many handlers and dog owners. Or people wonder if their dog is behaving dominant, aggressive.... or just plain normal?

This thread is meant to help people analyze their own dog's behaviour and question other peoples (and so called "experts") opinions about "dominance", "aggression" and the so called "dominant dog".
Too many dogs are mishandled because their were falsely labeled as being "dominant" or "aggressive".
This is why it is so important to share the knowledge about these two traits (if you want to call them like this).

It would be nice if you all shared your personal views on these two terms and your personal definitions with all of us.
Maybe we could help each other in gaining better understanding and knowledge about our canine friends.

Danny

[Kathie Compton]

The way I understand it, dominance doesn't exist outside of a relationship. Dogs may be dominant toward certain people or certain dogs. It depends on the relationship the dog has with a particular individual. Aggression, on the other hand, is a "personality" trait. If a dog is dog aggressive, it is aggressive to all dogs when in the same situation.
(of course there are exceptions and I should probably avoid using the words all, always and never here.)

[Alberta Hanko]

This is a subject dear to my heart since my Linus displays aggression towards most dogs and men in particular, although children make him nervous also, as do some women. I may be wrong in my ideas, but here goes:

My idea of a dominant dog is an extremely self confident dog who feels that he/she is on top of everything and deserves to be there. I don't particularly see this as an aggressive dog, although fights may break out if others do not defer to this dog or challenge it for food or attention.


My idea of aggression is that it usually is a means of driving something away by a scarey display of lunging, barking, snapping, growling or even biting if the lunging and snapping doesn't work. I feel a lot, or even most aggression is based on fear.

I am really interested to see what everyone else thinks on this.

Alberta & Linus

[Debbie Chastain]

A friend is visiting us today. He brought along his rescue dog, Zues. This guy,(the dog), is the perfect example of what some would label a "dominance aggressive" dog.

My take on this type of behavior is that some dogs are born with certain traits, which in the wild, could take him to pack-leader status. He is only 16 months old, neutored, and lots of attitude. Kind of a border collie/aussie mix.

This dog challenged me the minute I walked in the door, (in my own house by the way!). In talking with Ted, I found out Zues has already nipped at a couple of people. Ted, is a very intelligent, but passive man. Not a good mix. I gave Ted a few basic pointers to help him, and suggested he find a trainer who would help him set some boundries before Zues hits his 2 year point. If Ted lived closer, I would gladly help him myself. I always hate to see a situation where the dog might not "make it" and be given up to a shelter. Not providing a dog with, "rules, boundries, & limitations" - to quote Cesar Millan, to me is to not give them what they need to become socially functional, and is, IMO, neglectful, at best.

2 hours later:

Ted, Zues and I just got back from a training walk. What a great dog! Ted has him on a long-prong collar. He has agreed to switch him to a collar with mini-prongs with plastic tips. I personally like these because they don't slip down on a dog's neck like choke chains. We also used body language, short verbal tones, attitude, and eye contact; rather than the leash to communicate what we expected of him. This is so much fun!

Sorry to get so long winded, guys! I just get so excited when I see a breakthrough!

My take on this topic is this: "dominance aggression" is an inborn survival trait, which exists in some dogs. This is not to be confused with "fear aggression", which is a whole other topic.

[Renee]

Danella-

I do understand what you are getting at...I just thought I'd cover dominance aggression because it seems that so many people misuse this term when trying to find a label for aggressive dogs (humans have a tendency to want to label or categorize things....).

Now, I have a little time to finish my thoughts...

Dominance is a social construct that actually serves to reduce aggression. Dogs/Wolves who are dominant are socially confident and successful. Dominance describes a relationship between 2 or more beings. Dominance and aggression are two separate concepts (excluding dominance aggression/control conflict aggression) that are often mistakenly used as synonyms.

Dogs and Wolves have a rank order (social status) - alpha, beta, omega. Rank order is not always linear and is subject to flexibility depending on the circumstance. Canid social heirarchy is not a democracy and not an autocracy. All members have some amount of influence (unless there is a crisis) . But dog/wolves who are dominant have a choice. The get to decide what they want and when they want it. Alpha dogs are confident, dominant and don't have to use aggression to get what they want. Dominance can be used in very subtle ways...

Unfortunately when pet owners label a dog "dominant", often times the dog is actually a bully, a beta, "alpha-wannabe", or sometimes the dog is really just fearful and defensive. Many times dog owners are the primary cause of these types of problems because of how they use the dominance paradigam and unknowingly create tension between their resident canines. They "support" one dog over another and more problems are created.

Pack theory/Dominance paradigm is a model we use to describe behavior (and is primarly based on captive wolf studies)- a very poor one and poorly understood one at that. We really don't need this pack theory/dominance paradigm to help us train or understand our dogs. Pack theory has been historically detrimental to the way people view their dogs because it sets humans and dogs up for a confrontational relationship. The problem is when we see wolf or dog behavior, it isn't rapped up with a simple explaination (my 3 days a wolf park have taught me this). This is why multi-dog household problems so fluid, complex, dynamic and changing.

Bottom line:
1. Don't worry about which dog is dominant
2. Teach all your dogs to be patient and polite
3. Dominance does not equal aggression
4. Dominance has little to do with dog training and behavior modification

[Daniela Jantzen]

So in other words (or my personal words :D):
dominance describes a relationship between two individuals (and is usually displayed the most in the presence of certain ressources). For each dominant individual, there has to be a submissive counterpart.
And as such, many owners might not be mistaken if they label their dog as dominant in their daily interactions- it can very well be that the dog shows dominance in the relationship with the owner, but not towards other people.
However, every type of dominance is a flexible scheme which can be reformed/altered through certain training and socialisation scenarios. After all, no relationship is stationary, right? ;)

Aggression, in my eyes, is not a trait: it is an instrumentual behaviour allowing the dog to get what it wants, without being "good" or "bad", just plain canine behaviour. An aggressive dog always has one certain goal in mind.
Unfortunately, not everything which is called "aggression" is actually aggressive behaviour.
Renee already made a good point about dominance not equaling aggression.

But it might be helpful to establish some kind of guide together where aggression really starts, what signs to look for when you meet another dog or even have to observe your own (I am especially referring to the dog park situations we covered in another thread).
So what do you think, which is the first sign to look for indicating that a dog might act aggressive (don't worry about false answers, there is none! Everything can count)?

Danny

[Renee]

.
However, every type of dominance is a flexible scheme which can be reformed/altered through certain training and socialisation scenarios.
Danny

Daniela,

I'm not sure what you mean by this....Could you explain......We should not be trying to "reform" dominance and it has little to do with socialization and training. Dominance explains a relationship.

[Renee]

But it might be helpful to establish some kind of guide together where aggression really starts, what signs to look for when you meet another dog or even have to observe your own (I am especially referring to the dog park situations we covered in another thread).
So what do you think, which is the first sign to look for indicating that a dog might act aggressive (don't worry about false answers, there is none! Everything can count)?

Danny

I think that this topic is so broad that I would have a hard time discussing it in it's rightful entirety on this message board...but I'll get the ball rolling anyway.

Factors that influence aggression: resiliencey, trauma, physiological, socialization/early experience, stress, fear, hormones, genetics and learned behavior/training.

Aggression has many classifcations human-aggression, dog-aggression, leash-aggression, control conflict aggression, fear aggression, idiopathic aggression, possessive aggression (resource guarding), predatory aggression, redirected aggression, territorial aggression....I'm sure there are a few more also... We also need to classify aggression as normal (as in the behavior is used by most dogs) or abnormal (as in chemical imbalance)

Understanding canine communication is imperative....I would recommend Turid Rugaas's book calming signals. It is a nice starting point for learning about canine communication. Stress signs, calming signals and distance increasing/decreasing signs are all a part of reading canine body language....(if I have time, I'll explain more about this later)

Gotta run....later

[RubysMom]

Hi all -
Daniela was kind enough to start this thread in response to my question under Misc behaviours topic called 'Bully Buddy'..I was describing her bahaviour at the dog park and trying to determine the correct terminology to use. I think your bottom line sums it best - forget trying to label it, just deal with it :eek:
That said, I'm finding this all very interesting and looking forward to more info. Ive heard mention of the book Calming Signals in another post and this might be a good start for me.

[Debbie Chastain]

So what do you think, which is the first sign to look for indicating that a dog might act aggressive (don't worry about false answers, there is none! Everything can count)?

Danny


The signs which indicate dominance/aggression to me:

A dog which shows no fear, clearly moves forward - claiming space, direct and focused eye contact, ears forward, tail level or up, (but not wagging stifly like a rattlesnake - which I would consider nervous, not dominant). Sometimes there are vocal warnings, but not rapid and nervous barking.

These dogs seem to have problems with other dominant dogs and assertive people, but not with submissive dogs or people. This is what indicates to me that this a "dominance/aggressive" dog, rather than an "aggressive" dog.

I saw an example of this while recently touring a shelter with a group:

There was a dog who displayed all of the above mentioned signs when anyone walked up to his pen with an assertive posture. Then this one gal knelt down outide the pen, avoided eye contact, and made puppyish submissive noises. The dog's demeanor immediately changed. Just a reminder, this dog showed no signs of fear or nervousness.

[Alberta Hanko]

But it might be helpful to establish some kind of guide together where aggression really starts, what signs to look for when you meet another dog or even have to observe your own (I am especially referring to the dog park situations we covered in another thread).
So what do you think, which is the first sign to look for indicating that a dog might act aggressive (don't worry about false answers, there is none! Everything can count)?

Freezing, with ears forward and large eyes.

Alberta & Linus

[Renee Premaza]

Hi Renee!

Loved your "essay" here. My favorite part is:

"Bottom line:
1. Don't worry about which dog is dominant
2. Teach all your dogs to be patient and polite
3. Dominance does not equal aggression
4. Dominance has little to do with dog training and behavior modification"

When dog owners and trainers get hung up on these terms, it really does undermine the relationship between the owner and the dog. If you classify a dog as being "dominant," the humans' hackles tend to go up about their own dog. I like to call dogs either "confident" or "unconfident." I think many dogs that show aggression toward other dogs or humans are bully dogs. I've only met one "alpha dog." She was marvelous!! She controls a whole room of dogs at a daycare center with using subtle body language. I loved watching her! Other dogs that show aggression do so because they're flat-out scared. However, it's scary when an owner says things like, "he's just afraid." The "just" in that sentence is their way of minimizing the aggression that their dog is showing. People who become defensive about their dog's aggression worry that the trainer/behaviorist is going to tell them to put their dog to sleep.

Anyway, it's a lot more important for humans to have great leadership skills and to let our dogs know (1) we're there to guide them and protect THEM from harm's way, and that (2) we control all of their resources so they should look to us for anything they need. As I'm sure you know, when a dog is given the responsibility for making decisions in a household, that dog becomes very hyper, nervous, stressed and anxious. When this happens, the dog often becomes aggressive and the people think he's being "dominant." There are 4 ingredients in creating aggression in dogs: fear, anxiety, anger and frustration. As dog owners and trainers, let's just try to keep our dogs calm and as stress-free as possible.

Great discussion guys! I just discovered it's been going on.

Danella-

I do understand what you are getting at...I just thought I'd cover dominance aggression because it seems that so many people misuse this term when trying to find a label for aggressive dogs (humans have a tendency to want to label or categorize things....).

Now, I have a little time to finish my thoughts...

Dominance is a social construct that actually serves to reduce aggression. Dogs/Wolves who are dominant are socially confident and successful. Dominance describes a relationship between 2 or more beings. Dominance and aggression are two separate concepts (excluding dominance aggression/control conflict aggression) that are often mistakenly used as synonyms.

Dogs and Wolves have a rank order (social status) - alpha, beta, omega. Rank order is not always linear and is subject to flexibility depending on the circumstance. Canid social heirarchy is not a democracy and not an autocracy. All members have some amount of influence (unless there is a crisis) . But dog/wolves who are dominant have a choice. The get to decide what they want and when they want it. Alpha dogs are confident, dominant and don't have to use aggression to get what they want. Dominance can be used in very subtle ways...

Unfortunately when pet owners label a dog "dominant", often times the dog is actually a bully, a beta, "alpha-wannabe", or sometimes the dog is really just fearful and defensive. Many times dog owners are the primary cause of these types of problems because of how they use the dominance paradigam and unknowingly create tension between their resident canines. They "support" one dog over another and more problems are created.

Pack theory/Dominance paradigm is a model we use to describe behavior (and is primarly based on captive wolf studies)- a very poor one and poorly understood one at that. We really don't need this pack theory/dominance paradigm to help us train or understand our dogs. Pack theory has been historically detrimental to the way people view their dogs because it sets humans and dogs up for a confrontational relationship. The problem is when we see wolf or dog behavior, it isn't rapped up with a simple explaination (my 3 days a wolf park have taught me this). This is why multi-dog household problems so fluid, complex, dynamic and changing.

Bottom line:
1. Don't worry about which dog is dominant
2. Teach all your dogs to be patient and polite
3. Dominance does not equal aggression
4. Dominance has little to do with dog training and behavior modification

[Renee]

Thank you Renee P.... I have a background in ethology/zoology at the undergraduate level so social status, dominance, heirarchy are topics that I love discussing. Plus my 3 day seminar at Wolf Park with Suzanne Clothier and Pat Goodman have really helped to streamline and solidify all of my thoughts on this topic.

Dog training is so far behind the curve when it comes issues of aggression, social status and dominance. I think dog trainers need to step it up and become better ethologists. The literature about animal behaivor is out there....dog trainers just need to start reading it.

I also met Beth Duman when I was at Wolf Park. She gave me this wonderful handout on why we need to let go of the dominance paradigm in training dogs. I thought it was really great....if you don't already have a copy of it, maybe she would be nice enough to download it to CC's file folders.

Thanks again,

[Debbie Chastain]

I just remembered an episode on one of the animal cops shows:

Two rotties had been seized from an owner. A male and a female. After the dogs were brought to the shelter, one of the officers entered their pen. This officer owned rotties himself so he wasn't uncomfortable doing this. When he reached out to pet the male on the back of his neck, the dog bit him. The officer would not let the dog be put down for this, so they sent the dog to work with a trainer. The officer said he thought the male was just protecting the female.

A few weeks later, the officer went to visit this dog, who was acting fine while working with the trainer. The trainer indicated that the dog had not bitten anyone else and had not been acting aggressive. As the officer attempted to pet the dog again, he got another bite. Still, the officer would not let the dog be put down. By now, the officer was more concerned as to why this was happening, and only with him.

Enter the dog behaviorist:

After observing this rottie and learning everything that was available on the dog's background. The behaviorist concluded that the two bites the officer had recieved, were what he called "dissapline" bites from a dog which was showing "dominance/aggression". Since this was only happening in certain situations, with this one officer. The expert did not label the behavior as general "aggression". To test this out, he approached the dog the same way the officer had, (only using a fake hand!). The dog immediately reacted with aggression.

I thought this was a very interesting situation to observe. I can't recall who the behaviorist was, but I sure would like to meet and talk with this guy.

[Renee]

The behaviorist concluded that the two bites the officer had recieved, were what he called "dissapline" bites from a dog which was showing "dominance/aggression".


Dominance is not synonymous with aggression....

[Alberta Hanko]

I saw the same show Debbie, it has been on many times actually. I was particularly interested in the part when the officer went into the pen with the male and female. If you look at the male, he was very stressed and wary, so the bite was not at all surprising. And the officer was reaching over his head, making him more nervous. With the second bite, the dog was very used to his handler but I got the feeling that he was pushed beyond where he should have been, he was not comfortable being pet by someone he did not know, and that is why the second bite happened. I was watching closely because I have to watch my Linus' reaction and expressions closely, and I keep him from getting that close. I can't allow people he doesn't know to pet him, he needs a long slow introduction, and even then I discourage petting until he is very comfortable, and soliciting the pet, which would not be during the first few meetings. And once that happens, I do suggest no "petathons", just a few strokes on the side, or under the chin.

Alberta & Linus

[Renee Premaza]

>>The behaviorist concluded that the two bites the officer had recieved, were what he called "dissapline" bites from a dog which was showing "dominance/aggression". <<

>>A few weeks later, the officer went to visit this dog, who was acting fine while working with the trainer. The trainer indicated that the dog had not bitten anyone else and had not been acting aggressive <<

Did anyone mention on this show that there's a possibility this Rottie was never socialized with police officers wearing uniforms? Also, I'm sure when the dogs were seized they were scared to death. Dogs learn by association. The dog very possibly had formed a negative association with this officer! The behaviorist didn't work with the dog AND the officer together, so there's no reason to have expected the dog to change his opinion about him. If the behaviorist had taken the time to desensitize and countercondition the dog with that particular officer, he probably would not have chosen to bite him a second time.

What finally happened with the Rottie?


I just remembered an episode on one of the animal cops shows:

Two rotties had been seized from an owner. A male and a female. After the dogs were brought to the shelter, one of the officers entered their pen. This officer owned rotties himself so he wasn't uncomfortable doing this. When he reached out to pet the male on the back of his neck, the dog bit him. The officer would not let the dog be put down for this, so they sent the dog to work with a trainer. The officer said he thought the male was just protecting the female.

A few weeks later, the officer went to visit this dog, who was acting fine while working with the trainer. The trainer indicated that the dog had not bitten anyone else and had not been acting aggressive. As the officer attempted to pet the dog again, he got another bite. Still, the officer would not let the dog be put down. By now, the officer was more concerned as to why this was happening, and only with him.

Enter the dog behaviorist:

After observing this rottie and learning everything that was available on the dog's background. The behaviorist concluded that the two bites the officer had recieved, were what he called "dissapline" bites from a dog which was showing "dominance/aggression". Since this was only happening in certain situations, with this one officer. The expert did not label the behavior as general "aggression". To test this out, he approached the dog the same way the officer had, (only using a fake hand!). The dog immediately reacted with aggression.

I thought this was a very interesting situation to observe. I can't recall who the behaviorist was, but I sure would like to meet and talk with this guy.

[Debbie Chastain]

Renee,

I was trying to remember if they said anything about what they were going to do to help the dog. I'm pretty sure he was not going to be put down, though. I didn't want to speculate.

I'm also trying to remember, but I think the officer was in plain clothes the second time he was bitten. The officer was a large man, but seemed calm the first time I watched the episode. I did watch the episode a second time, because it was so fascinating. I was able to see the interaction a little more closely, and you could definately see the dog's behavior before the bite. It also seemed to me, the officer was putting out a bit of something... (sorry, I can't quite put my finger on it!), which added to the bite.

This is a very interesting piece of footage. Maybe the media has it's uses after all! ;) I'd like to hear some more "takes" on this clip from the members of this forum.

With all of the summer reruns coming up, I'm sure it will be on again. It was an Animal Planet show. I hope you get a chance to view it.

[Daniela Jantzen]

A dog which shows no fear, clearly moves forward - claiming space, direct and focused eye contact, ears forward, tail level or up...

I like those, they are good.
A very clear picture of a dog trying to impress through body language. This is the first level of possible aggression in my eyes. It can lead to threatening which can quickly turn into a fight/bite.
Thank God, as "dog" is a very ritualized language, any type of confrontation usually stops either here or at the point "threatening".
As some natural instinct tells our dogs to try to prevent harm and injuries as good as possible, most confrontations are over before they actually start. Impressive posings play a big role in canine interactions.
Sometimes they are scary to look at and sound awful, but they are rarely problematic.
However, if one of the dog involved was mine and I did not know the background of the other dog, I would watch VERY closely form this point on and, if I feel uncomfortable with the situation, break it up.


Freezing, with ears forward and large eyes.
Good ones, especially the "freezing".
However, a "frozen" dog is one which is only a second away from acting up even more. So if you see a dog starting to freeze, you might want to break up the situation at once if you don't know both dogs! Unfortunately for us humans, with most dogs the freezing is very subtle and can last no more than one second. Fortunately, there are usually other gestures indicating that the dog might fall into a freeze soon.

I observed a very interesting interaction amongst our dogs which could explain it a little closer:
We have recently brought our third dog into our household, an older female and former stray from Spain. She is a very sweet tempered lady, however, she has never really learned to accept other dog's personal space.
She made the mistake ignoring one of our dog's attempts and gestures to keep her away from his food bowl. After she did so, he snarled and snapped her away. She still kept on coming closer again. So he jumped up and pushed her away. When she approached the first time, he pinned her to the ground, baring his teeth and growling like....well, quite loud. :)
After this interaction, all he has to do now is freeze once she approaches too close. And she understands these signals ( and the consequences of ignoring them) and turns away.
It might sound cruel to you that we let the dogs teach each other those lessons. However, I think it is important for them to learn the various stages of conflict and learn how to deal with them amongst each other, how to solve them without our interaction (we would not have done so if we had not known the good bite inhibition of this male towards other dogs and his good social behaviour). After all, no matter how hard we try, we are just not that fluent in "dog".

Personally, I start to observe a dog closer when it displays no overt signs of friendliness. Plain and simple.
If a dog, for whatever reason does not look friendly, there is a possiblility that it might react aggressive in one way or the other. A friendly dog does not feel fear, anxiety, anger and frustration, the main reasons for a dog to react (unless it is in pain), as Renee P. has pointed out so clearly.
If, for whatever reason, the dog does not display friendliness, I start watching the body angle it has towards me (or whoever else it is approaching). A dog in my eyes is the most scary the more direct it approaches. If it is ever so slightly bent sideways, there are good chances that it is just insecure and will warm up at once when addressed properly (see calming signals or deescalation signals, however you want to call them :D).

Danny

[Debbie Chastain]

Something that occured to me regarding the Animal Planet segment of the officer and the dog. In the wolf world, if a subordinate animal walked up to a dominant animal, from the side, kind of forming a "T" formation and put it's muzzle on the dominant animal's neck, they could recieve a "dissapline" bite from the dominant animal.

Renee, if you read this, does this ring any bells with you from what you learned at the Wolf Park?

[Susie B]

This has been such an eye opener for me. I was confusing dominance with aggression. Both of my dogs, 7 yr old mix and 1 1/2 yr old rescue I've had for 5 mos, show different signs of dominance, not aggression. I was worried at first with the rescue, she showed some signs of "bullying" but those were just dominance signs. They have been getting along so well lately and I am so pleased. I've read so many horror stories with rescues, I'm so glad mine worked out. :-P We have 1 more advanced obedience class which she has excelled in. I'm a little nervous about this week's assignment - off leash work. I know I'm going to use the 30' training lead and not just let her loose. She's probably ready - but I'm not! I've heard so many people refer to dominance aggressive behavior, you think they're both the same thing.

[Daniela Jantzen]

Something that occured to me regarding the Animal Planet segment of the officer and the dog. In the wolf world, if a subordinate animal walked up to a dominant animal, from the side, kind of forming a "T" formation and put it's muzzle on the dominant animal's neck, they could recieve a "dissapline" bite from the dominant animal.
.....

I would say, regarding the incident with the officer and the dog, we can all just assume what might have been the trigger or the motivation.

Blocking other dog's way is a cocky attitude which can quickly lead to threatening behaviour followed by aggression. It is usually displayed by dogs seeking higher status (or thinking they have it already) towards others and is usually answered by either desescalation signals or by similar gestures.

As dog and wolf interactions are very ritualized, the better actor with more self-confidence wins in the end. If the animals are living in a stable pack, this is usually the dominant one (dominant over another meaning: this animal wins access to a valuable ressource in 70-90% of all interactions).
If they only form a lose pack (dog park situations etc.) however, the situation can be different: every dog has the right for discipline bites when being approached by another in the t-formation, no matter what status. After all, if not shown in the right context, it can be very rude behaviour which does not have to be tolerated by anyone.....
Those "bites" usually displayed in these interactions are either really discipline measures by the more confident animal or defensive ones by a more insecure dog who is defending its indiviudal space out of fear.

What is what is not always easy to figure out, but usually discipline measures can be seen as physical corrections with the correcting dog moving forward towards the rude aggressor. Self-defensive bites are more aimed at the air space around the defending dog with it slowly retreating.

Danny

[Casey Laurie]

:confused:
I am so confused. I have shelter, veterinary, and behaviorists tossing the term dominance aggression around concerning my foster. At first I did not understand what they were talking about, but as I look at her body language in different situations; I see different types of aggression. I can see why they seperated the types if they feel that dominace aggression and fear aggression should be treated diffrently. I have read quite a few things that suggest that they should be. All the semantics are driving me nuts with confusion.

This is the conclusion I have come to after reading all of this and just observing my dogs.

A dog with fear aggression issues is a dog that instinctually chooses "fight" instead of "flight", when faced with whatever it perceives to be a threat to its physical well being. This dog, as far as it is concerned at that moment, is fighting to survive.

Anything else, that doesn't have a medical or chemical root is, IMO, "being a brat". They may have very good reasons for being a brat, but the behavior is still unnacceptable in human terms.

Is basic treatment (break it down into the root of the treatment, not the step by step methods) for either type of aggression different from the other?
If so, how do you tell the difference between them?

[Renee]

Hi Casey,

:confused:
I am so confused. I have shelter, veterinary, and behaviorists tossing the term dominance aggression around concerning my foster. At first I did not understand what they were talking about, but as I look at her body language in different situations; I see different types of aggression. I can see why they seperated the types if they feel that dominace aggression and fear aggression should be treated diffrently. I have read quite a few things that suggest that they should be. All the semantics are driving me nuts with confusion.

We don't use the term dominance aggression anymore because it is very misleading. The correct term is control-conflict aggression. Sometimes dogs are mislabeled "dominance aggressive", when the reality is that this type of aggression is not very typical. Do you agree with the vet and the behaviorists assessments?

Dogs who fit into the control conflict aggression category are abnormal. These type of dogs try to control the environment. I have personally never met a dog who has this type of aggression. Maybe Renee P can chime in because she works with a lot of aggressive dogs. When I attended a Brenda Aloff canine aggression seminar this spring, Brenda said these type of dogs are very rare and very scary. These dogs are seriously assertive and are not just being pushy.

If you are interested in learning more about this topic, I would recommend the book Aggression in Dogs by Brenda Aloff. It's kind of expensive, but it is the gold standard for learning about canine aggression.

Sometimes dogs will fall into several categories and it can make the dog hard to label. Also, aggression might not be easily categorized if the dog's prior background is unknown. If your rescue dog has complex problems, perhaps you should try to identify all the triggers and work on it from there. Don't get too hung up on labeling. Find out what is reinforcing for your rescue and use it to plan out a good D & CC program.

Good Luck,

[Casey Laurie]

Thanks Renee :)
I am interested in learning more..mostly because of my own dogs and our foster. I'll be sure to put that book on my list too. I've got a big selection to wade through right now too. I have Pam Dennison's latest: How to Right a Dog Gone Wrong, plus her Idiot's Guide to Positive Dog Training, and Bringing Light to Shadow. Culture Clash, Dogs are from Neptune, Click to Calm...all on my summer reading list, lol.

I also have a trainer coming next week for a consultation and training session with all of my dogs. I'm nervous, but relieved that I will finally have someone who can look at our environment and give us practical advice, plus show me what I'm doing right and what I'm doing wrong in terms of training and timing and such.

One of the biggest challenges I have is that all of the books I've had a chance to read so far insist on 100% control of the training environment. Well; that would certainly be lovely, but unless I plan on keeping my dogs behind the closed doors and windows of my tiny apartment 100% of the time, that just isn't possible. I'm also finding that while it truly is optimal to have 100% control; not having it certainly isn't totally detrimental to the process, you just have to learn how to adjust, adapt, and move on. That's what I'm hoping this trainer will be able to help me to do ::crosses fingers::
I'm on a great booklist through Yahoogroups; CSDogBookReview, and the last author was Emma Parsons. I have high hopes that "Click to Calm" will provide me with some great guidelines. Now I just need time to breathe and read, lol. :p

[Monique Shimm]

Gosh, I remember seeing that episode on Animal Cops... I taped it on Tivo and watched it over and over in slow motion. I could not believe that the cop was an animal control officer. He knew that the dog was aggressive and what does he do???? He walks over to the dog and pats it on the top of its head on their first introduction. Then the second time around, he does it again (I think, he does the second time around). You could totally tell that the dog was going to bite - or at least that it was under stress (of course, I have been visiting this website for 6 months now!!!). That dog was licking it's lips, turning its head away. I can't remember the rest of the signs. Amazing to watch it happen... my breath was caught in my throat as I watch the inevitable happen.

[Debbie Chastain]

It's kind of like watching a sad movie. You know how it's going to end. But everytime you watch it...you always hope for a happy ending! :(